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hey

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[Music]

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blast off on another episode of hero

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paranormal podcast broadcasting from the

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base at la madre mountain just south of

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area 51 my name is ryan the original

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outlaw of the airwaves bringing you an

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amazing episode today our guest today is

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a phenomenal individual with

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mind-blowing accuracy at approaching the

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ufo subject from a scholarly perspective

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from a solid base of reason as a

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philosophical radical volunteerist our

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guest joe buchman is

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the uncle we all wish we had

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an adventure traveler former

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congressional candidate at the utah

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libertarian party

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sky watcher

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worked at the libertarian party platform

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committee from 2012 to 2013

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former volunteer at sundance institute

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former chair at libertarian party has a

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masters of science in management and has

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met and kept friendships with many of

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the brightest minds in the ufo field

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according to wired magazine

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he is a web savvy edu punk

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and i think that's a great description

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he has connected many dots keeping the

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pulse of research from a ufology

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standpoint and i value joe as a human

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being and value his philosophical views

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of life and understandings of the

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machinations behind the veil known as

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politics

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among his favorite quotes democracy is

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two wolves and a sheep voting on what's

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for dinner and with the republic

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the sheep has a gun

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it's not just political views that

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astound me the most about joe

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my admiration is vividly tied to his

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kind humanitarian way

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of approaching the sacred mystery of

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ufos and those involved with its

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research nothing draws more interest

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too many than the so-called invisible

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college of ufology is it real

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or is it imaginary the participants may

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be anonymous because

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of the often associated stigma that

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comes with the tales of ufos and little

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green men

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however a group of academics scientists

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and many others belong to a domain just

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outside of public view

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yet teeming with collective revelations

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from intelligence communities civilian

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research think tanks and military

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insiders

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the fascinating result is a group that

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for all plausibility does not exist in

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any formal way the invisible colleges j

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alan heineck called them

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whether real or not in a formal group

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sense are very much invisible

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and yet a force upon the ufo field many

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will purport are the players at the

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frontiers of research they identify

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hoaxers and out hoaxers websites among

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themselves but not publicly

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their grapevine of information is much

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like that of a secret society they hang

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on to alleged pieces of alien craft as

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if they were puzzle pieces to the holy

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grail

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they are typically intelligent and

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successful yet shy away from public

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scrutiny the invisible college is quite

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literally a moving wave of information

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collectives on a mission to solve

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humanity's greatest questions

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joe has unique views on just about

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everything and i couldn't think of a

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better person to help myself and others

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understand the mysterious reality or

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myth

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of the invisible college and disclosure

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in general

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joe welcome to the hero paranormal

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podcast

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you're very kind ryan i appreciate that

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introduction

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very much and in the world of precise

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scholarship

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i was not sure the libertarian party's

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national committee just uh chaired

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libertarian party of utah which was

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quite enough

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but yeah i am a philosophical

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radical voluntarist i believe in the use

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of zero force to initiate

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any kind of political uh or social

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change

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uh i don't um oppose the use of force to

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react to force being taken against a

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another but i would want that minimized

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and maybe i'm actually leaning toward

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pacifism which is the best way to react

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to force or violence is with uh

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martin luther king jr or gandhi's

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approach of of uh

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civil disobedience and and holding up a

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mirror to those who would think that

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force is ever appropriate

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and to cut to the chase in this

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interview i'd like to imagine universe

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that's teeming with life

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would have encountered that as a natural

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law of survival that you just don't get

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to be someone who initiates violence

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against others and have that the

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genetically reinforced behavior and the

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longest

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of terms

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and that those societies

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in a natural way die out

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and that more enlightened folks who hold

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non-initiation of aggression as a core

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value

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expand and i hope that's the universe we

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live in i don't know

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and when i hear myself say things like

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that i realize that then encountering

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cosmology and

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and ufos if you like then it does become

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something of a philosophical or almost

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religious

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encounter which anyone who's been out

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west where i live

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and looked at the night sky knows that

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cosmology by definition is a religious

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experience right right that sense of

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just

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an infinity out there of which we are

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but the tiniest of specs having our

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great dramas

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play out on planet earth it's good to be

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here and thank you for inviting me to be

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on your show yeah

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absolutely it's good to have you here

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and you're entirely right ufos and

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technology and religion they all kind of

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intermix and

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joe you've caught glimpses behind the

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scenes

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of some of the brightest and best

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ufology has to offer calling congress to

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hold open hearings on the government's

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extraterrestrial related activities

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in your experience

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is decl is disclosure coming and is the

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in my experience the invisible college

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uh is a real thing

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i it depends on how any given individual

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defines that but i think the overarching

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sense of it is absolutely real um

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i feel a little bit like the forest gump

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of ufology i just keep bumping into

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incredible people

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with incredible stories to tell that i

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find

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credible or at least worthy of careful

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attention and

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among those

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dr hal put off

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for me would be near the top of that

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list i am a

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member of the society of scientific

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exploration a group of academics that

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publishes a journal holds a conference

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and

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touches what might be called edge

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science things that aren't taken

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seriously within the ivory towers of

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traditional academe that are worthy of

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study

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others who look at those issues dr dean

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raiden at ions which was started by the

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sixth man to walk on the moon dr ed

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mitchell

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dr john alexander

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uh published a couple of books which i

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find absolutely fascinating ufos myths

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realities conspiracies reality denied

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things that couldn't happen but did

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i think i'm pretty close to having those

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titles accurate um

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these are individuals who i find

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fascinating and and most recently

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pre-coveted at a sse meeting

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in

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gave a speech

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it was a joint meeting of of uh

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the society for scientific exploration

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and the international remote viewing

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association urba irva

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um as your listeners are

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tuning in uh you know jot these

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organizations and books down and do some

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reading

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look over the websites consider

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attending those conferences if they ever

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happen again

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uh irva is made up of the people who

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were employed by the united states

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government to do psychic spying for the

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cia that really happened it's part of

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our documented

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revealed formally classified government

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history it really really happened

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trained by people at the monroe

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institute robert monroe in his book

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journeys out of the body

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so this phenomenology of of uh our true

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nature you know are we some sort of

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being that has chosen to have a human

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experience and is wearing some sort of

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meat

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suit

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a while and then our greater life is

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something more than this i don't know

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but remote viewing would suggest that

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human beings have a cognitive ability to

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perceive things at a distance something

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also studied at ions iambs

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well anyhow how put off was giving a

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a speech

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accepting this award at a joint meeting

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of ssc and irva

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and said you know many of you know that

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i was a founding member of irva but

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i'm also being given this award for my

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work on ufos and i've never published

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anything about ufos so why would that be

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well and then he says and you can find

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this transcript

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up at stephen bassett's website paradigm

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research group and maybe elsewhere on

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the internet too i i know this quote

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pretty well because i was in the

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audience i got the recording of what he

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said

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immediately typed it up and sent it off

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to steve

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steve published it on his website for a

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while i thought i was going to get in

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trouble for that but

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i sent it to dr kelleher clem kelleher

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at bass

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and he forwarded it to hal and i just

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gave it as a gift here's a transcript of

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what you actually said so hal said

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something very much like

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a reason i haven't published on ufos is

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i was part of a highly classified

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program if i were to do so

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i would encounter severe punitive

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consequences from nda's

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and i haven't been able to talk about

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this but now there's some things in the

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public domain that i can talk about so

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hang on to your seats and i was blown

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away in the next half hour

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there in las vegas at that 2018 society

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of scientific exploration conference

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where he talked about the nature of meta

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materials

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and i think we're only beginning when

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you when you combine ufos and

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our true nature of life in the cosmos

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and technology this was the intersection

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of that in a profound way

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meta materials are are materials that

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are manufactured

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00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:17,680
using extraordinary processes not

288
00:11:21,670 --> 00:11:19,120
available

289
00:11:23,829 --> 00:11:21,680
or discovered by humanity before fairly

290
00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:23,839
recently maybe a little bit further back

291
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:25,920
in the black world

292
00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:29,279
but this layering at an atomic level of

293
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:31,040
different fundamental elements from the

294
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:32,800
periodic table

295
00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:35,360
and so you talked about some recovered

296
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:37,120
material

297
00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:39,040
that was sent to our bell

298
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:40,880
radio talk show host art bell what was

299
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:43,760
known as arts parts back in the 90s

300
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,120
and a lot of people thought this was a

301
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:47,600
hoax and just some melted aluminum and

302
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,040
alleged to have been recovered by

303
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:51,360
somebody at a crash site of some

304
00:11:56,629 --> 00:11:54,959
apparently non-human created craft

305
00:11:58,870 --> 00:11:56,639
passed down i think a son and then

306
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:58,880
passed on to arts there's no problems in

307
00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:00,320
terms of

308
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:02,000
being able to document where this came

309
00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:04,639
from with scientific certainty or even

310
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:07,600
at the level of legal certainty

311
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:09,839
but linda mulhal got it did an analysis

312
00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:12,720
of it in the 90s analysis continued

313
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:14,160
and it turned out to be

314
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:17,760
layers of busy business and magnesium

315
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:20,800
and bismuth and magnesium in a way that

316
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:22,720
nobody could do on earth they took it to

317
00:12:25,509 --> 00:12:24,560
various manufacturing plants national

318
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:25,519
labs

319
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,480
nobody

320
00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:28,079
could understand why somebody would want

321
00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:29,920
to do this we couldn't get bismuth and

322
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:31,760
magnesium to adhere the way that it was

323
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,440
appearing in the sample so it was a kind

324
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:35,760
of a mystery and this is what dr puthoff

325
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:37,680
is talking about

326
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,279
at that society of scientific

327
00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:41,120
exploration meeting

328
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:43,440
you can find videos of this speech now

329
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:45,680
uh at the ussc website maybe it's even

330
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,839
up on youtube for free i'm not sure

331
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,680
but at the time we'd all signed

332
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:51,680
non-disclosure agreements about the

333
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:53,440
conference and i thought it was so

334
00:12:56,949 --> 00:12:54,800
important

335
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:56,959
that i typed it up and sent it to steve

336
00:13:01,269 --> 00:12:59,040
bassett immediately and steve put it up

337
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:01,279
on his website and and that turned out

338
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:04,160
to be fine um the end days weren't about

339
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:05,839
that kind of sharing it had more to do

340
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:08,399
with people profiting off of

341
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:10,639
things that might be said or done there

342
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:11,839
anyhow

343
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:14,240
i went up to hal after a speech and had

344
00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:17,920
an extraordinary conversation um

345
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:21,040
where i said the doctor put off

346
00:13:23,350 --> 00:13:22,160
um

347
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:23,360
you know

348
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,399
i'm a hardcore libertarian

349
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:28,240
and by the way that includes having some

350
00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:29,600
critical things to say about the

351
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:31,760
libertarian party i'm not an unreserved

352
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:33,680
fan of everything that the organization

353
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:35,839
does but i am a hardcore libertarian i

354
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:36,880
believe in

355
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:38,639
individual liberty and engaging with

356
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:41,279
others through peaceful means education

357
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:44,320
persuasion not force or taxation

358
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:46,079
um and we can get into the details of

359
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:48,560
that later but i said to how

360
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:50,399
i believe in government transparency the

361
00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:52,720
minimum government possible that's just

362
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:55,199
who i am philosophically and i think he

363
00:13:58,949 --> 00:13:57,199
already knew that

364
00:14:01,509 --> 00:13:58,959
and i said but if i were to be read into

365
00:14:03,189 --> 00:14:01,519
this program whoever's got these meta

366
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:03,199
materials whoever has been trying to

367
00:14:09,269 --> 00:14:06,480
reverse engineering yet whoever

368
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,279
has more knowledge than than the rest of

369
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:11,040
us about

370
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:12,800
what actually happened

371
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:16,639
in roswell in 47 or what we may know of

372
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:18,000
whether we're alone in the universe or

373
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:20,959
not if i were read into that

374
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,720
you think even with my philosophical

375
00:14:27,430 --> 00:14:24,480
orientation i would agree that it's in

376
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:27,440
the best interests of humanity

377
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:30,240
not to disclose this information and if

378
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:32,160
i knew what the big secret was would i

379
00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:33,760
agree with it

380
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:36,320
i think sometimes that perhaps

381
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:37,680
the reason

382
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:39,440
the et's haven't landed on the white

383
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:41,120
house lawn or

384
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:43,120
the reason that humans who may be aware

385
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,399
that there's

386
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:47,040
non-human intelligence engaging us

387
00:14:50,710 --> 00:14:48,800
having talked about it is because

388
00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:50,720
humanity right now is very much like a

389
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:53,760
caterpillar and a christmas

390
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,320
struggling to emerge as the butterfly

391
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:58,240
as much as you might want to help that

392
00:15:02,550 --> 00:15:00,800
caterpillar emerge from that suffocating

393
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:02,560
cocoon

394
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:05,040
when humans do that the butterfly dies

395
00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:07,120
because it needs the struggle of

396
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,880
fighting its way out of the cocoon to

397
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:10,560
develop muscles that will allow it to

398
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,040
fly as a butterfly and i wonder

399
00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:15,360
if the aliens aren't looking at us like

400
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:17,440
that we need to leave these people alone

401
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:18,800
in their

402
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:21,519
nest that they've made such a mess of

403
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:23,360
see if they can clean it up and we ache

404
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:24,959
for them to join us as peaceful

405
00:15:29,110 --> 00:15:27,519
enlightened beings in the cosmos of

406
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:29,120
others with that

407
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,800
orientation i'd like to imagine that's

408
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:32,160
where we are now i didn't say all that

409
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:34,720
to house so i'll back up so i said how

410
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:36,959
if i were read into this program would i

411
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:38,480
agree that it's a good idea to keep it

412
00:15:43,189 --> 00:15:41,040
really secret

413
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:43,199
and he looked at the carpet and then he

414
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:44,880
looked up at me and he said you know

415
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:47,440
it's a really good question

416
00:15:50,949 --> 00:15:48,959
he said i don't know

417
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:50,959
but i don't find the reasons for keeping

418
00:15:55,570 --> 00:15:53,360
it secret as compelling as the

419
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:55,580
gatekeepers do

420
00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:58,160
[Music]

421
00:16:02,069 --> 00:16:00,079
and i was just stunned i wish i could go

422
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:02,079
back in time and say gatekeepers who are

423
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:03,759
the gatekeepers

424
00:16:07,829 --> 00:16:06,079
right when you ask is there an invisible

425
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:07,839
college

426
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:09,920
yeah i think maybe hal has bumped up

427
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:11,680
against the edges of it

428
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:13,680
maybe he's even inside of it to some

429
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:15,120
degree

430
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:17,519
i don't know but i was listening to an

431
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,519
interview with lou elizondo just in the

432
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:21,360
last day

433
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:23,680
and he's talking about

434
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:25,279
amnesty

435
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:26,399
for

436
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,639
the group that may have

437
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,920
been

438
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:31,839
studying recovered non-human created

439
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:33,120
technology

440
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:34,880
and that that group stopped briefing

441
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,560
congress and stopped briefing the

442
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,040
executive and has gone rogue

443
00:16:43,749 --> 00:16:41,600
and that one way to get disclosure

444
00:16:46,069 --> 00:16:43,759
to get those guys to open up

445
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,079
is to offer them amnesty

446
00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:48,959
truth and reconciliation along the

447
00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:51,600
the path laid out by nelson mandela

448
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:53,680
and the way that healed uh south africa

449
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:56,320
and i'm so i'm stunned by that

450
00:16:59,910 --> 00:16:57,519
so

451
00:17:01,749 --> 00:16:59,920
if there's no such group

452
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,759
that would be an extraordinary thing for

453
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:04,079
louisando to be making up out of thin

454
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:05,039
air

455
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:08,079
um is there a group out there i wonder

456
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:10,799
that knows a lot more about

457
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:14,240
where we are in the food chain of the

458
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,640
most technologically competent life in

459
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:19,360
the cosmos that's been keeping this a

460
00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:20,559
secret

461
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:22,160
and and do they really believe their

462
00:17:26,949 --> 00:17:24,160
reasons for keeping it secret are in our

463
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:26,959
best interests

464
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:28,880
or are they some sort of

465
00:17:34,070 --> 00:17:31,280
uh breakaway civilization like richard

466
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:34,080
dolan talks about that should be reigned

467
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:35,120
back in

468
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,960
i don't know i'm not close enough to any

469
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:38,799
of that to know but i bumped up around

470
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:41,760
the edges of it enough to say

471
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:43,360
wow this is really interesting and there

472
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,000
might might be something going on here

473
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:48,160
worthy of my attention

474
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,480
and that that then became a motivation

475
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:52,480
for running for congress first in in

476
00:17:57,270 --> 00:17:54,880
2008 and then again in a special

477
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:57,280
election here in utah in 2017 after

478
00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:59,039
jason chaffetz resigned right after

479
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,799
getting elected

480
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:02,400
uh cost the state about five million

481
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:04,160
dollars i think he should have paid that

482
00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:05,600
out of pocket

483
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:07,679
but um

484
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:10,880
when i ran in 2008 i got ridiculing news

485
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:13,200
coverage like the park record in in park

486
00:18:18,789 --> 00:18:16,080
city utah my hometown front page

487
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:18,799
story immigration taxes and little green

488
00:18:24,549 --> 00:18:22,480
men libertarian with a twist joe bookman

489
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:24,559
and it was nothing but ridicule and

490
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:27,520
degradation ksl radio

491
00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:30,320
made fun of me

492
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:32,320
in a light-hearted you know good humored

493
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:35,360
way i suppose but i was in washington dc

494
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:37,200
i announced that campaign at the

495
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:39,600
national press club thanks to steve

496
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:40,640
bassett

497
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,039
holding a media event there after one of

498
00:18:46,789 --> 00:18:45,120
his ex conferences i'll be out forever

499
00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:46,799
grateful to steve for that i think steve

500
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:48,400
does good work

501
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:50,880
um so i'm in dc i announced my campaign

502
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:52,880
i'm going to call for congress to pass

503
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,480
legislation

504
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,480
to protect whistleblowers you know right

505
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,280
now we persecute whistleblowers um we

506
00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:01,520
intimidate them definitely

507
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:03,600
we uh we do horrible things to people

508
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,600
who suggest our government has engaged

509
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:07,600
in criminal activity

510
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,120
so i saw a path

511
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,600
to healing that being congress passes

512
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:13,840
resolutions legislation

513
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:15,440
protecting whistleblowers on anything

514
00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:17,520
related to government waste

515
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:18,640
fraud

516
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:21,360
criminal activity or the e.t issue the

517
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:24,080
et issue was the fourth of those and of

518
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:25,440
course that's all anybody wanted to

519
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:27,679
focus on when they wanted to make fun

520
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:28,960
of me

521
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:31,520
when i ran again in 2017 it was a sea

522
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,799
change

523
00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:34,640
i was actually taken very fairly

524
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,039
seriously

525
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,360
got in seven debates got reasonable

526
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:42,000
media coverage and um

527
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:43,600
i developed what at least i experienced

528
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:45,200
as a friendship with the guy who won

529
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:47,760
that election congressman john curtis

530
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,080
former mayor of provo utah now serving

531
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:52,799
in the united states house he and i have

532
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:54,240
continued to

533
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,240
email exchange i just attended one of

534
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:58,240
his open houses he was very kind in

535
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:59,679
front of the entire audience there at

536
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:01,039
the beginning of his remarks he

537
00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:02,960
acknowledged me as somebody who had run

538
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,120
against him in that campaign

539
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:07,600
i said no john we were running together

540
00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:09,919
for the same office i never run against

541
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,880
anyone

542
00:20:14,549 --> 00:20:12,559
and he laughed and told the audience

543
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:14,559
that's what i love about my libertarian

544
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:15,520
friend

545
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:16,960
so you know people say well i run as a

546
00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:18,559
third-party candidate well if you can

547
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:19,679
get the attention of the guy who

548
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:21,360
actually wins

549
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:22,799
you can create social change without

550
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:24,240
winning the election if you could win

551
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:26,640
the battle of ideas

552
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:27,520
so

553
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:30,159
i've rambled around a bit

554
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:32,080
i think there is

555
00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:33,679
something fairly described as an

556
00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:35,440
individual college i think there's a

557
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,280
core of it that

558
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:39,280
perhaps has been engaged with this issue

559
00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:42,320
from the time of president truman

560
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:45,840
i think perhaps it it went rogue

561
00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:47,120
richard dolan thinks it went

562
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:49,120
multinational and corporate and

563
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:50,720
underground as a way to avoid the

564
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,960
freedom of information act

565
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:54,799
maybe

566
00:20:59,430 --> 00:20:57,280
thinks there's a breakaway civilization

567
00:21:01,510 --> 00:20:59,440
give that less caduality

568
00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:01,520
others think there's a secret space

569
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:03,440
program and we're already traveling the

570
00:21:08,549 --> 00:21:06,400
cosmos with some sort of high-tech

571
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:08,559
anti-grav or

572
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:10,960
space-time vending machines

573
00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:12,640
i give that very low credibility but

574
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,720
some people think there is such a secret

575
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:16,559
space program i don't know what i'm

576
00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:18,159
pretty sure of though is there's a wider

577
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,320
circle outside of that core that as far

578
00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:22,159
as i know i've never encountered

579
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:24,480
people like bob bigelow and hal put off

580
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:25,360
and

581
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:30,070
this guy i can't pronounce his name uh

582
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:32,080
who with com and george knapp just

583
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:33,840
published a book on the skinwalker ranch

584
00:21:37,510 --> 00:21:36,240
it's catski do you know how that name is

585
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:37,520
pronounced yes

586
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:40,320
uh lakatsky i believe lookowski that's

587
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:42,880
right i mean i think these guys are not

588
00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:45,120
in the very inner circle or around that

589
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:46,880
campfire somehow and then there's people

590
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,360
like me a little further out quite a bit

591
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:51,039
further out just sort of

592
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:52,880
bumping into them occasionally wondering

593
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:55,360
what the heck's going on

594
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:57,039
john alexander

595
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:59,200
was the host for that sse meeting in

596
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:01,039
vegas it's his hometown he's one of i

597
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:02,720
believe the founding members or had been

598
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:03,919
on the board

599
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,760
and part of what john arranged which was

600
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:07,520
so extraordinary

601
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:10,080
was a tour of bigelow aerospace

602
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:13,280
so i got to go there um on buses from

603
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:15,280
the convention center out to bigelow's

604
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,320
property

605
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:18,480
saw the control room for genesis 1 and

606
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,000
genesis 2. i don't know if your

607
00:22:24,789 --> 00:22:22,080
listeners are aware but we have two

608
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:24,799
inflatable space habitats orbiting the

609
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:28,080
earth right now neither of them occupied

610
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:29,520
but test

611
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:31,280
craft to see if this inflatable

612
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:33,280
technology would be durable and could

613
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,880
support life and then later bigelow

614
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:36,720
attached one to the international space

615
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:39,520
station glued up like a balloon

616
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,159
gives a much larger space and what they

617
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,320
believe is a safer space compared to the

618
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:46,640
tin can of of the older parts of the

619
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:49,360
space station anyway my tour guide was

620
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:51,360
tom galler

621
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,039
and

622
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:55,360
it's just an extraordinary experience of

623
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,120
seeing what they're developing for for

624
00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:59,280
human occupancy and low earth orbit

625
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,559
incredible

626
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:03,360
so i'm pretty sure bigelow might be

627
00:23:07,669 --> 00:23:05,520
around the edges of that in invisible

628
00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:07,679
college i don't know how far in or if he

629
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:09,840
has the same questions i have

630
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:11,760
and then i'm pretty sure as i'm sure you

631
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:13,280
are as well and anybody who looks at

632
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:15,440
this issue is whatever

633
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:18,000
human beings have the greatest amount of

634
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:20,159
knowledge on this subject

635
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:23,360
i suspect they realize they know even

636
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:25,520
less than we do in terms of the the

637
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:27,600
grand questions amen imagine they're

638
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:29,520
just left bewildered

639
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:31,919
um having confronted whatever it is that

640
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:33,520
they know that we we'd all like to know

641
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:36,080
as well i i don't think there's any

642
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:39,520
human beings on the planet who've got

643
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:42,559
some sort of end level of answers to who

644
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:44,480
we are why we're here what's the nature

645
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:46,880
of reality what's real physics look like

646
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:49,440
how do you travel the stars

647
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:50,480
um

648
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,679
uh

649
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:53,279
the things i wonder about and i know you

650
00:23:57,029 --> 00:23:54,720
do too and that that's why i've enjoyed

651
00:23:58,470 --> 00:23:57,039
our friendship so much over the years is

652
00:24:00,789 --> 00:23:58,480
it's rare to find people to have

653
00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:00,799
conversations like this with

654
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:03,200
because it seems to me like out of the

655
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:06,320
seven billion people on planet earth

656
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:08,320
close to seven billion of them are are

657
00:24:13,029 --> 00:24:11,120
more concerned about what's going on in

658
00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:13,039
hollywood or the latest

659
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:16,559
curious sex scandal or yeah the latest

660
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:19,919
true crime story or or just

661
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:21,600
for an awful lot of us just finding

662
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:23,200
enough to eat so you don't go to bed

663
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:24,640
hungry

664
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:27,440
um so asking questions about cosmology

665
00:24:31,830 --> 00:24:28,240
and

666
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:31,840
there's intelligent non-human life here

667
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:33,440
whether there's recovery technology

668
00:24:37,350 --> 00:24:35,440
we've attempted to reverse engineer

669
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,360
these are rare conversations not a lot

670
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:39,440
of the planet is having them yet

671
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:40,720
yeah

672
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:42,400
it's extraordinary

673
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:44,799
and you know most people are not as

674
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,720
academic and scholarly in the way that

675
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:48,320
they view this subject matter and i

676
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:50,960
appreciate that about you although it

677
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:53,039
may be one of the most important

678
00:24:58,149 --> 00:24:54,960
missions overall in our quest for

679
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:58,159
answers as to our place in the universe

680
00:25:01,350 --> 00:24:59,440
in the

681
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:01,360
incidents that you've researched you

682
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:03,279
mentioned that sometimes these

683
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:05,679
witnesses or experiences aren't treated

684
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:06,960
all that well

685
00:25:11,669 --> 00:25:09,120
have you come across tales of the

686
00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:11,679
proverbial men in black and who do you

687
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:19,750
i have no clue who they are

688
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,000
and yes i have run across

689
00:25:26,830 --> 00:25:24,080
people who i know well who

690
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:26,840
related incredible stories of having

691
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:29,440
encountered what you might term in

692
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:31,600
plaque and and

693
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:33,279
the first of those stories goes oh way

694
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:36,000
back to the 1960s

695
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:39,360
um i i've often asked myself why am i

696
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:41,360
interested in this subject you know how

697
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:43,200
did that come to happen

698
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:44,720
actually

699
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:47,520
that reporter out of cape cod his last

700
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:50,320
name's farley dick farley

701
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:52,320
was at the

702
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:54,640
ex-conference press conference at the

703
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:56,480
national press club i think a year later

704
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:58,640
maybe 2009

705
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:00,480
and he asked me why i was interested in

706
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,480
this and i kind of fumbled around he

707
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:04,320
says well i think you're a contactee i

708
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:05,919
think that's what causes people to get

709
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:07,279
interested and i thought well that's

710
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,559
wacky

711
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:10,720
i have no memory of ever having been a

712
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,919
contact to you of any kind and i i have

713
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:14,799
a

714
00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:17,039
high hurdle for

715
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:19,600
giving credulity to people who report

716
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:20,960
encountering

717
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:23,279
bty for channeling the pleiadian

718
00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:25,200
galactic council and that kind of stuff

719
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:26,480
i just

720
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:28,480
i don't want to call it crap but it kind

721
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,640
of goes into that bucket for me and i

722
00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:32,720
admit that as a bias

723
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:34,320
i know some people

724
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:36,480
find it very credible and helpful and

725
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:38,480
enlightening or whatever whatever i i

726
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:41,440
just haven't focused on that but

727
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:44,080
dick farley's question got me wondering

728
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,510
i had

729
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:51,600
bought an rv this is going to be a long

730
00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:53,360
story but i'll try to cut it somewhat

731
00:26:56,950 --> 00:26:55,520
short i know i tend to ramble not at all

732
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:56,960
and i'll try to get back to the point of

733
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:59,679
the men in black i bought an rv in 1998

734
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:01,279
put my wife and four kids in it they

735
00:27:05,909 --> 00:27:03,840
were all little kids pre-teens

736
00:27:07,510 --> 00:27:05,919
did a tour around the country and then

737
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:07,520
we did that again the next year and we

738
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,000
went down to roswell and glen dennis and

739
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:12,000
walter hott were still alive

740
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:14,159
and i met them talked to glenn dennis at

741
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:15,760
length

742
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,520
he was interested in getting a smaller

743
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:19,200
rv

744
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,600
the museum there was fascinating and i

745
00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:23,600
realized something that shocked me which

746
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:26,240
was that stan friedman

747
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:30,000
didn't interview jesse marcel senior

748
00:27:34,549 --> 00:27:32,960
i think it was 1978

749
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:34,559
uh or maybe that's when the book was

750
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:36,240
published

751
00:27:39,669 --> 00:27:37,360
um

752
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:39,679
and i had been asking about

753
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:42,399
ufos at hangar 18 of wright-patterson

754
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:50,389
so in that museum i thought how the heck

755
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:52,720
did i know to ask about

756
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:55,840
recovered flying saucer hangar 18

757
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,430
i was a

758
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:05,679
sophomore in high school and i had

759
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:08,000
entered a science fair in indiana i grew

760
00:28:12,789 --> 00:28:10,399
up just north of louisville kentucky

761
00:28:14,830 --> 00:28:12,799
and i was playing around with lasers and

762
00:28:17,830 --> 00:28:14,840
holograms in

763
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:17,840
1974. i bought a kit

764
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:19,279
back in those days pre-internet you

765
00:28:23,590 --> 00:28:21,279
could get these catalogs of scientific

766
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,600
equipment they were just fascinating

767
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:25,200
full of stuff for people doing science

768
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:27,279
fair projects

769
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,080
and so i ordered a ruby red laser from a

770
00:28:34,549 --> 00:28:32,080
company and i i soldered together the

771
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,559
power supply and i built a mounting for

772
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,880
the ruby red laser it was about the size

773
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:38,880
of two pringle cans one on top of the

774
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:39,919
other

775
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,600
and it plugged into the wall didn't run

776
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:43,600
on batteries

777
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,760
the tube for the laser was about a

778
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,360
little smaller than the size of one of

779
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:49,279
those pringle cams

780
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:50,880
i got to be one of the first people on

781
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:52,559
earth to discover that you could point a

782
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:55,120
ruby red laser dot at the floor

783
00:28:59,190 --> 00:28:56,840
and drive your cat

784
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,200
nuts i was doing that

785
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:01,279
again 1974.

786
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:02,960
well i won the science fair got all

787
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:04,559
sorts of awards

788
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:08,000
got an award from the air force and

789
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,840
went up to

790
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:11,600
indianapolis

791
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:13,919
at the same arena that's in rocket boys

792
00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:17,279
the movie from the same science fair

793
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:19,360
10 12 years after the one that's in

794
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:21,520
rocket boys winner von braun was not

795
00:29:24,789 --> 00:29:23,520
there for mine

796
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,799
but

797
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,399
part of the award for the air from the

798
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:29,200
air force included a trip

799
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,789
so off i go

800
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:36,799
and

801
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:38,399
i remember it very clearly because you

802
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:39,840
know the interstate highway system was

803
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,840
still pretty new and that was probably

804
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:43,440
the long furthest i'd gone away from

805
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:45,679
home without my mom or dad

806
00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:46,880
um

807
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:52,480
and i had this friend in scouting who

808
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:55,919
was an older uh advisor you know i was

809
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:57,760
14 he was probably 10 years older in his

810
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:59,360
20s and he said oh if you're going up

811
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:00,880
the right path ask about the flying

812
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,279
saucer in hangar 18. so i did

813
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:05,360
quite innocently

814
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:07,840
uh ignorantly i said to these two air

815
00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:10,240
force officers uh

816
00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:12,640
you know can i see the flying saucer

817
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,000
and

818
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:16,080
i have a very vivid memory of part of

819
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:19,279
that trip on the highway

820
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:21,039
uh we're in the car and we're passing a

821
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,880
military convoy

822
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:24,640
and they say something about civilian

823
00:30:27,669 --> 00:30:25,840
cars aren't supposed to get in the

824
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:27,679
middle of a convoy

825
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,120
and i said well

826
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:31,279
if the law is not publicized how do you

827
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:34,159
expect people to follow it

828
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:36,240
i guess i was a libertarian even then

829
00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:38,640
because uh i read somewhere all of us

830
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:40,880
commit about nine felonies a day mostly

831
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,480
out of ignorance because the federal

832
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:44,320
code is about as tall as the empire

833
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,760
state building if you print the whole

834
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:47,120
thing out

835
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,960
but anyway i have a vivid memory of that

836
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:50,080
i have no memory of being at

837
00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:51,760
wright-patterson air force base and then

838
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,440
i have a vivid memory of them dropping

839
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:54,960
me off at home

840
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:57,360
when one of them says later that day it

841
00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:00,640
was night time by now says uh do i turn

842
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,640
left to get to your parents house and i

843
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:04,399
said yeah that's right he said don't

844
00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:05,519
ever say that you should say that's

845
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:07,360
correct if you say that's right it could

846
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:08,960
be confusing

847
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:10,720
now why do i have these two very vivid

848
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:12,480
memories and no memory of being a right

849
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:13,600
path

850
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:15,039
i don't know so after i visit the

851
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:16,840
roswell museum

852
00:31:21,269 --> 00:31:18,640
1999

853
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:21,279
maybe it was 98 but i think it was 99.

854
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:22,880
um

855
00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:24,320
i started wondering about these things

856
00:31:27,509 --> 00:31:26,000
so i called my friend pete up and i said

857
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:27,519
boy are you trying to get me killed how

858
00:31:33,190 --> 00:31:29,360
did you know about

859
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:33,200
flying saucers at right pat 1974

860
00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:36,880
and told him the story i just told you

861
00:31:39,909 --> 00:31:38,480
and he said well he had a friend who was

862
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:39,919
a certified

863
00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:42,240
flight instructor my friend pete was a

864
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:44,240
private pilot this was the guy who

865
00:31:48,389 --> 00:31:46,240
taught him to fly flying buddies are

866
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:48,399
often best friends

867
00:31:53,509 --> 00:31:51,039
so my my buddy was really interested in

868
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:53,519
flying saucers so we went to this

869
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:54,880
thing at the university of louisville

870
00:31:58,470 --> 00:31:56,320
with the talk and they talked about a

871
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:58,480
flying saucer right pat so we drove up

872
00:32:01,750 --> 00:31:59,360
there

873
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:01,760
and we tried to get into hangar 18 of

874
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,440
building 18.

875
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:05,200
and he says really funny joe for about a

876
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,679
year after that i was followed around by

877
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:09,760
guys who drove a dark sedan and wore

878
00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:12,159
dark suits and sunglasses with narrow

879
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,120
ties

880
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:15,600
if i ever met with my friend at uh

881
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:17,519
frisch's trisha's is kind of like

882
00:32:21,509 --> 00:32:18,559
denny's

883
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:21,519
or bob's big boy back then in the 60s so

884
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,960
these other guys would show up and sit

885
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:24,640
at the booth across from us and just

886
00:32:28,870 --> 00:32:26,000
stare at us he said it was followed

887
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:28,880
around for about a year so that's my one

888
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:31,039
men and black story took a long time to

889
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:32,399
get there

890
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,440
um

891
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:35,120
so i've been really interested in what

892
00:32:39,269 --> 00:32:36,720
happened to wright-patterson air force

893
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:39,279
base and yvonne smith has offered to

894
00:32:43,430 --> 00:32:41,039
regress me i told the story to win

895
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:43,440
multi-house 20 years ago she said i

896
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:45,279
should go see leo sprinkle i've never

897
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,799
done that now we was in his 90s i think

898
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:50,399
um

899
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:52,000
but i would like to recover the memory

900
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:53,760
of what happened there the only other

901
00:32:58,149 --> 00:32:55,279
thing that

902
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:58,159
that relates to that is when i graduated

903
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:00,559
from college i had an overwhelming

904
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:03,039
desire out of nowhere

905
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:06,480
to apply for a job with sandia labs

906
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:09,519
and i remember going to the stacks and

907
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:11,440
the indiana university library that

908
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:13,919
beautiful building they have there

909
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:18,399
and looking up um sandia labs i just

910
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:20,640
for no reason i was looking at the rand

911
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:22,080
corporation i had a friend who had

912
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:24,320
gotten a job with bell labs i don't know

913
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:26,480
where i ever heard of sandia and of

914
00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:27,919
course my undergrad degree was in

915
00:33:31,190 --> 00:33:30,000
marketing i didn't pursue a career

916
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:31,200
studying

917
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:33,760
electronics or holograms

918
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:34,640
but

919
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:37,360
linda or or

920
00:33:41,029 --> 00:33:39,360
maybe it was yvonne or somebody said you

921
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:41,039
know that was probably a hypnotic

922
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:43,120
suggestion they gave you

923
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:46,000
at right path yeah i'd also told this

924
00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:48,159
story to a friend of mine who

925
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:49,919
worked in intelligence for the united

926
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:51,760
states army and was just absolutely

927
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:53,440
convinced that i had been clinically

928
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:55,279
debriefed he said if you were asking

929
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:56,480
about

930
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:58,960
flying saucers in 1974

931
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,200
they didn't have a sense of humor

932
00:34:04,870 --> 00:34:03,120
they may have pulled you aside

933
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:04,880
given you a drug to find out how you

934
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,480
need to ask about that he said the

935
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,320
reason i say that is one of the common

936
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:10,320
side effects of that drug is

937
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:13,119
you have a very clear memory before it

938
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:14,480
takes effect

939
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:16,320
you have a very clear memory of after it

940
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:19,599
wears off and nothing in between

941
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:20,800
and

942
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:21,760
i have

943
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,000
another friend who's a psychiatrist i've

944
00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:26,720
shared this story with and he said yeah

945
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:28,079
i know what kind of drugs they were

946
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:30,079
using in the 60s that's

947
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:33,040
a common kind of story so the

948
00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:34,720
memories you might have are probably

949
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:36,560
completely unrecoverable if that's what

950
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:37,919
they actually did and i said you give

951
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:40,000
this story credence

952
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:41,839
he said yeah absolutely he said i said

953
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:43,440
you believe i was chemically debriefed

954
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,119
as a high school student at wrightpat

955
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:47,679
1974 he says i absolutely believe it and

956
00:34:52,069 --> 00:34:49,280
i said you know you believe it more than

957
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:52,079
i do why is that he said it's because

958
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:53,760
it's not the first time i've heard this

959
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:55,919
story

960
00:35:02,550 --> 00:34:58,480
um linda mullen house has said she was

961
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:02,560
aware that this invisible college

962
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:05,280
was recruiting

963
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,280
grooming

964
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:10,079
identifying early on

965
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:12,079
people who might join the organization

966
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:13,359
later

967
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:15,599
by sending people to high school science

968
00:35:19,109 --> 00:35:17,760
fairs like looking for the brightest

969
00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:19,119
minds

970
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:21,680
uh to to kind of monitor and watch and

971
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:23,680
maybe develop and then bring into the

972
00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:26,240
organization you know a decade later

973
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:27,280
sure

974
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:30,320
if that's the case i probably messed up

975
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:35,829
i never got such an invitation

976
00:35:40,230 --> 00:35:38,320
but uh what i've just told you

977
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:40,240
on this podcast that whole story of

978
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:42,320
visiting right pat i've only told that

979
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:44,480
one or two other times um something i

980
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:47,040
had been uncomfortable talking about and

981
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:49,200
um never shared it

982
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:50,960
at a conference or

983
00:35:54,710 --> 00:35:52,880
other than in private conversations late

984
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:54,720
at night so it'll be interesting to see

985
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:55,920
if

986
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:58,480
your podcast stirs up any reactions for

987
00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:59,839
anyone but

988
00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:01,440
i believe my friend pete when he tells

989
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:03,200
me he was followed around by guys who

990
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:05,119
look like classic men and black guys

991
00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:08,560
because i've known this guy since i was

992
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:10,960
in my early teens and and he's an honest

993
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:13,040
guy yeah

994
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:14,240
absolutely

995
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:15,040
and

996
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:17,760
many of the top minds researching let's

997
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:19,920
just call it high strangeness in general

998
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:21,440
have gathered

999
00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:24,240
that human observers of this phenomenon

1000
00:36:28,230 --> 00:36:27,040
are receivers of sorts and as jack valet

1001
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:28,240
i believe has mentioned there's

1002
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:31,520
typically two types of ufo reports the

1003
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:33,680
ones that are reported to authorities

1004
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:35,200
and the ones that are shared with

1005
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:37,040
trusted listeners

1006
00:36:40,069 --> 00:36:38,480
do you think

1007
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:40,079
that some feel the need to go to

1008
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:42,079
authorities and are these typically less

1009
00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:44,160
dogmatic individuals or less religious

1010
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:46,880
individuals and what part if any do you

1011
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:49,440
think religion or spirituality plays in

1012
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:56,710
yeah i don't know um

1013
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:59,119
you know eric van doneken

1014
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:01,280
is somebody who's been at the contact in

1015
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:04,320
the desert conference uh yeah frequently

1016
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:06,160
maybe even every year

1017
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:08,800
yeah guys in his 80s last time i saw him

1018
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:11,359
and full of energy and when i was in

1019
00:37:15,990 --> 00:37:13,440
high school or junior high read cherry

1020
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:16,000
to the gods

1021
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,000
or maybe there was a tv thing about it

1022
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:20,480
or something so i was kind of

1023
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,079
loosely aware of it but i went to

1024
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:24,079
bondigan's presentations because one of

1025
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:25,680
the big benefits of being a speaker at

1026
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:27,200
these conferences is you can go to the

1027
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:29,520
other speakers presentation

1028
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:31,760
um which is something i did i didn't see

1029
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:33,520
a lot of other speakers doing they were

1030
00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:35,040
mostly

1031
00:37:39,589 --> 00:37:37,520
hanging around or selling books or doing

1032
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:39,599
other stuff but

1033
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:42,400
i find von doneken's take fascinating

1034
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:45,599
and he deconstructs the book of enoch

1035
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:48,560
as not a spiritual experience with

1036
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:51,119
the god of the old testament but of a

1037
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:52,880
ufo encounter

1038
00:37:58,470 --> 00:37:56,480
and talks about how he's uh taken up and

1039
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:58,480
caused to become naked and covered in a

1040
00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:00,240
holy oil

1041
00:38:04,270 --> 00:38:02,640
uh which von tanakan says it sounds more

1042
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:04,280
like he was covered in some sort of

1043
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:06,960
anti-bacterial soap

1044
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:08,480
and then given a view of the earth from

1045
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,760
the heavens

1046
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:12,480
um it's a fascinating story ezekiel the

1047
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:14,880
wheel within wheels instead of flying

1048
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:17,359
saucers spinning

1049
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:19,839
you know some um some think that these

1050
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:22,079
lenticular craft

1051
00:38:25,270 --> 00:38:22,960
uh

1052
00:38:27,270 --> 00:38:25,280
are able to to

1053
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:27,280
do what they do with a propulsion system

1054
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:29,680
that maybe involves spinning mercury at

1055
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:31,440
a high speed around the edges of the

1056
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:32,400
craft

1057
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:34,720
some sort of inner tube like thing full

1058
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:37,440
of spinning maybe magnetized electrified

1059
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:43,349
wheel within wheel and ezekiel is that

1060
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:44,720
what he's trying to talk about so

1061
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,640
there's this idea that maybe all of

1062
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:48,400
religion

1063
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:51,839
uh is a misperception of encounters

1064
00:38:55,109 --> 00:38:53,040
with

1065
00:38:57,109 --> 00:38:55,119
biological life that evolved somewhere

1066
00:38:58,470 --> 00:38:57,119
else developed the technology and flew

1067
00:39:01,589 --> 00:38:58,480
here

1068
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:01,599
i don't know right uh buddhism boy that

1069
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:04,320
that stuff looks wacky um

1070
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:05,839
and and i say that

1071
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:07,440
with good humor because when i was on

1072
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,280
the faculty at indiana university i

1073
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:11,040
developed a friendship with

1074
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:12,400
norbu

1075
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:15,200
the older brother of the

1076
00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:17,920
buddha of compassion the dalai lama

1077
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:20,000
uh norbu was the

1078
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:23,280
head of the kumbum monastery in tibet

1079
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:26,400
he was studying there when he was

1080
00:39:29,750 --> 00:39:28,560
15 when he was 17 his younger brother

1081
00:39:31,750 --> 00:39:29,760
was born

1082
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:31,760
and then identified as the reincarnation

1083
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:35,040
of the buddha of compassion and when uh

1084
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:38,000
when the dalai lama was about 15 or 16

1085
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:40,000
the chinese came and norbu was

1086
00:39:45,510 --> 00:39:43,040
imprisoned and threatened with death

1087
00:39:48,069 --> 00:39:45,520
unless he would go to wasa and kill his

1088
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:48,079
younger brother and he lied and said

1089
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:49,520
yeah i'll do that so that he could

1090
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:51,040
regain his freedom

1091
00:39:55,190 --> 00:39:53,119
by his religious standards in the moment

1092
00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:55,200
he told his first lie in his entire

1093
00:40:01,990 --> 00:39:58,480
lifetime he lost his reincarnation

1094
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:02,000
as the head of this monastery but he got

1095
00:40:07,109 --> 00:40:03,760
to lawson told his younger brother we've

1096
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:08,870
and

1097
00:40:12,069 --> 00:40:10,079
his younger brother said no i'm going to

1098
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:12,079
stay he was going through the process of

1099
00:40:16,630 --> 00:40:14,160
all the ceremonies involved with being

1100
00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:16,640
fully vested as the dalai lama

1101
00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:19,359
but he sent nobody to america to raise

1102
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,520
attention for the tibetan

1103
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,200
cause

1104
00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:25,520
and eventually norbu wound up at indiana

1105
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,200
university teaching tibetan and

1106
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:29,760
mongolian and uh

1107
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:32,000
the history of tibetan mongolia and he

1108
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:34,319
was a fascinating professor there i met

1109
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,240
him after he'd retired

1110
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:39,119
me and this is a human being who grew up

1111
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:40,720
you know i don't know twelve thousand

1112
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:42,319
feet in the mountains there outside

1113
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:43,520
lhasa

1114
00:40:47,270 --> 00:40:44,319
uh

1115
00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:47,280
saw his whole culture

1116
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:50,000
invaded and destroyed he was still very

1117
00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:52,400
sad about it in his 80s

1118
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:55,829
who

1119
00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:01,030
for other people

1120
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,520
because of that suffering

1121
00:41:07,829 --> 00:41:05,520
you know i i got to meet the dalai lama

1122
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:07,839
a few times because of the relationship

1123
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:09,599
our family had developed with norbu he

1124
00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:15,750
and somebody asked

1125
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:18,000
the dalai lama in my presence who's your

1126
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:21,599
greatest teacher and he said the chinese

1127
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:22,960
because i wanted to learn about

1128
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:24,720
compassion

1129
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:27,599
and because of what i experienced

1130
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:30,079
i got to grow as a human being who could

1131
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:31,599
be forgiving

1132
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:33,359
wow

1133
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:35,119
i mean i get upset at somebody who cuts

1134
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:36,960
me off in traffic

1135
00:41:41,589 --> 00:41:39,280
but don't look at that as an opportunity

1136
00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:41,599
to grow in experiencing a greater level

1137
00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:44,319
of compassion forgiveness who is this

1138
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:46,800
man if you could say such a thing

1139
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:49,359
um

1140
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:51,599
so i wonder

1141
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:53,760
about the connection between religion

1142
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:56,160
and and and all of this

1143
00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:57,119
um

1144
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:58,800
and i said earlier i feel a little bit

1145
00:42:02,069 --> 00:42:00,319
like forrest gump

1146
00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:02,079
around this field i'll tell you about

1147
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:04,000
another individual

1148
00:42:08,309 --> 00:42:04,880
um

1149
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:09,510
certainly doesn't want me sharing his

1150
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:11,040
name but i'm going to share it anyway

1151
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:12,960
please don't bother my friend i don't

1152
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,560
think you'll mind

1153
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:16,400
uh but i have a good friend i met in

1154
00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:19,040
1975 at a boy scout thing

1155
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:20,960
a couple years older than me became a

1156
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,960
physician um

1157
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:24,160
i went to the university of north

1158
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:26,480
carolina chapel hill um

1159
00:42:31,829 --> 00:42:29,680
went to work as a backcountry wilderness

1160
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:31,839
first responder in

1161
00:42:35,589 --> 00:42:33,359
the grand canyon

1162
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:35,599
joined the air force became a pilot his

1163
00:42:40,870 --> 00:42:38,000
dream was to fly on a shuttle

1164
00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:40,880
and he was in the in the queue to to be

1165
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:43,280
trained to be a shuttle uh astronaut

1166
00:42:47,829 --> 00:42:45,040
when uh

1167
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:47,839
challenger exploded on liftoff

1168
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:50,720
january of 1987

1169
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:53,680
and um and then he aged out so he became

1170
00:42:59,030 --> 00:42:56,960
chief of medical operations in uh

1171
00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:59,040
in houston

1172
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:00,640
and um

1173
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:03,520
i got to visit him um there

1174
00:43:07,670 --> 00:43:05,520
to sit in mission control the flight

1175
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:07,680
surgeon's chair and

1176
00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:10,720
had some great conversations with him

1177
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:12,640
and i asked him about

1178
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:14,560
the question i said was hey we don't

1179
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:16,960
really have flying saucers shadowing our

1180
00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:22,630
and that was the end of that

1181
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:25,599
conversation um

1182
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:27,280
and just to get to the chase on this

1183
00:43:31,349 --> 00:43:29,680
he's never revealed anything um so

1184
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:31,359
somebody's listening wonder what roger

1185
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,640
told i don't think i'll mention this

1186
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:33,839
last night but you could probably look

1187
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:36,000
him up from what i've said

1188
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:37,520
somebody's wondering what roger told joe

1189
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:39,599
as far as i know he's violated no ndas

1190
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:43,200
he hasn't told me anything um

1191
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:44,480
you know

1192
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:46,240
that i'm keeping a secret from you but

1193
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:47,920
what he did say was look joe you got to

1194
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:50,240
understand to get this kind of a job

1195
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:51,680
you're going to find certain agreements

1196
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:53,200
that basically eliminate the bill of

1197
00:43:57,109 --> 00:43:55,119
rights as might as as much as i might

1198
00:43:59,109 --> 00:43:57,119
like to talk about some things even if

1199
00:44:00,470 --> 00:43:59,119
my even with my own wife if i were to do

1200
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:00,480
so i'd go to a place worse than

1201
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:05,109
she would lose the pension and health

1202
00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:06,640
care benefits

1203
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:07,920
so please don't ask me about this

1204
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,560
subject again wow

1205
00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:12,079
well that's an interesting answer the

1206
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:13,599
question do we have flying saucers

1207
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:14,880
shadowing our

1208
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:16,800
shuttles i had dinner with him a little

1209
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,720
over a year ago he's now in private

1210
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:20,880
practice in fort collins

1211
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:22,640
wonderful physician doing some

1212
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:24,800
cutting-edge stuff not just traditional

1213
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,720
allopathic medicine but bringing in

1214
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:29,040
other modalities has people coming from

1215
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,720
all over the world

1216
00:44:34,470 --> 00:44:32,079
and you can imagine your personal

1217
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:34,480
position as the guy who was once chief

1218
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:37,760
medical operations at nasa

1219
00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:39,040
um

1220
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,800
by the way i misunderstood that some

1221
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:42,480
other tellings of the story i called him

1222
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:44,160
the chief medical officer because chief

1223
00:44:48,069 --> 00:44:46,079
of medical operations is cmo and i

1224
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:48,079
thought it was chief medical operator a

1225
00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:49,760
chief medical operator that's a guy in

1226
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:52,000
dc who's a political appointment roger

1227
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:54,160
was kind of the head position for nasa

1228
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:55,599
then all the annual physicals and all

1229
00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:01,829
developed all the medical processes for

1230
00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:03,680
what was monitored on shuttle missions

1231
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,440
back in the 90s and all that so i had

1232
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:07,440
dinner with him and i said hey

1233
00:45:11,589 --> 00:45:09,440
roger i know you asked i not ask you

1234
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,599
about this subject ever again

1235
00:45:14,710 --> 00:45:13,520
but have you seen the videos from the

1236
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:14,720
nimitz

1237
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:17,599
uh these navy pilots yeah extraordinary

1238
00:45:21,430 --> 00:45:19,680
stuff and he says no i haven't seen any

1239
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:21,440
videos and i said well you really should

1240
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:22,720
you should look at the videos and he

1241
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:24,160
said is that the ones where they show

1242
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:26,480
this kind of hot water heater thing a

1243
00:45:29,270 --> 00:45:27,440
white

1244
00:45:31,030 --> 00:45:29,280
kind of cylinder and it flies along and

1245
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:31,040
zips under the water and flies up again

1246
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:32,880
and goes off out into space

1247
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:34,720
i said yeah so you've seen the videos he

1248
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:36,079
said i haven't seen the videos i saw

1249
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:41,349
like so you know we're not alone in the

1250
00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:42,960
universe

1251
00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:44,560
and he's like i don't know i don't know

1252
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,960
what i saw but uh he said joe i just

1253
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:48,720
don't think about those things he says

1254
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:50,240
you need to stop thinking about those

1255
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:51,200
things

1256
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:54,160
you need to get right with jesus

1257
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:57,520
so my friend roger is a very devout

1258
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,560
christian

1259
00:46:02,309 --> 00:46:00,880
and he worries about me because i'm i'm

1260
00:46:03,990 --> 00:46:02,319
not

1261
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:04,000
i

1262
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:17,280
not a member of the church of jesus

1263
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:19,040
christ of latter-day saints

1264
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:20,800
grew up a methodist

1265
00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:22,560
but roger worries about me thinks i

1266
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:23,599
should get back into a good

1267
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:25,130
bible-believing church

1268
00:46:30,069 --> 00:46:26,480
[Music]

1269
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,079
so yeah here you have a guy who was

1270
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:32,400
on track to fly on a shuttle became

1271
00:46:36,150 --> 00:46:34,480
chief medical operations

1272
00:46:37,990 --> 00:46:36,160
saw stuff when he was flying for the air

1273
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:38,000
force that looks a lot apparently like

1274
00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:39,920
what's in the nimitz videos

1275
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:42,560
and his reaction to all that is don't

1276
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,160
focus on all that get right with god

1277
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:48,480
interest so that's my story about the

1278
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:50,880
connection between ufos and religion i'm

1279
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:52,240
not sure if that answered your question

1280
00:46:55,349 --> 00:46:53,760
you could try answering it again i think

1281
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:55,359
i forgot what it was

1282
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:57,599
definitely does i think it does and you

1283
00:47:02,870 --> 00:46:59,920
do find a lot of these official

1284
00:47:05,589 --> 00:47:02,880
individuals are quite religious in some

1285
00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:05,599
uh circumstances and you've had the

1286
00:47:10,470 --> 00:47:08,800
pleasure of hearing uh for various ufo

1287
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:10,480
reports under a variety of different

1288
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,079
circumstances

1289
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,319
and do you feel that they all have

1290
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:17,280
something in common or do they vary as

1291
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:21,280
much as the participant observers

1292
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:27,349
i consider a lot of what people have to

1293
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:35,349
you know there's a prominent researcher

1294
00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:37,520
whose name i won't mention who i find

1295
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:39,760
lacking in credibility claims they've

1296
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:41,040
encountered

1297
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:46,390
at various mountain ranges actually

1298
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,160
there's two of those that come to mind

1299
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:50,720
they tell the same similar story i was

1300
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,559
with one of them

1301
00:47:57,430 --> 00:47:55,119
at um

1302
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:57,440
near the great sand dunes national park

1303
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:59,839
and i just found it to be a load of crap

1304
00:48:02,470 --> 00:48:00,640
uh

1305
00:48:03,990 --> 00:48:02,480
i'm sorry and then the other one's out

1306
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:04,000
at mount shasta

1307
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:06,480
and so okay so stories that i find to be

1308
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:08,960
made up not credible i need to chuck all

1309
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:11,280
those off to the side

1310
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:13,440
so i'll rephrase your question a bit

1311
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:16,240
among the stories that i find credible

1312
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,319
or at least worthy of further study

1313
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:20,400
there you go yeah

1314
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:23,440
or seemingly hard to fake

1315
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,640
um is there commonality there

1316
00:48:31,670 --> 00:48:29,040
yeah um

1317
00:48:34,150 --> 00:48:31,680
i haven't really put that

1318
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:34,160
into any kind of formal analysis but the

1319
00:48:37,829 --> 00:48:36,079
the the

1320
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:37,839
the ones i find credible that come to

1321
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:40,160
mind are first of all travis walton

1322
00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:41,760
jennifer stein's done a wonderful

1323
00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:44,240
documentary called travis i forget the

1324
00:48:49,510 --> 00:48:46,880
subtitle something like the true story

1325
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:49,520
um i've met travis a dozen times over

1326
00:48:53,589 --> 00:48:52,240
the years if that guy's made this up as

1327
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:53,599
some story

1328
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,480
uh yeah he deserves an oscar

1329
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:58,880
he's been totally consistent he's not

1330
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:01,040
been out apparently to make any money at

1331
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:03,280
it or seek any fame at it if anything it

1332
00:49:07,589 --> 00:49:05,839
it kind of ruined his life

1333
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:07,599
destroyed a lot of friendships and

1334
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:09,680
relationships even his own family among

1335
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:11,280
those who believed him and among those

1336
00:49:14,549 --> 00:49:12,720
who still believed maybe it was all some

1337
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:14,559
sort of hoax

1338
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:16,160
but what jennifer uncovered in her

1339
00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:18,000
documentary was that the sheriff at the

1340
00:49:21,670 --> 00:49:20,079
time who thought his logging buddies had

1341
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,680
committed murder

1342
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,599
and you know treated them that way as

1343
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:25,520
they did the investigation

1344
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:27,920
uh later came out and said you know

1345
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:29,280
i couldn't believe they all passed the

1346
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:31,040
lie detector test now there's one guy

1347
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:32,400
that had some issues because he had a

1348
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:33,920
warrant he was using an assumed name

1349
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:35,520
that had nothing to do with travis's

1350
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:36,640
experience

1351
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:38,319
that they saw this

1352
00:49:41,829 --> 00:49:40,240
clearly non-human created advanced

1353
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:41,839
technology craft

1354
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:45,119
saw travis somehow

1355
00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:46,800
negatively impacted by some sort of

1356
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:48,559
discharge that went running away in

1357
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,920
their vehicle that came back and he was

1358
00:49:53,109 --> 00:49:50,880
gone

1359
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:53,119
and travis reports having about an

1360
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:54,800
hour's worth of memories of being on a

1361
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:55,680
ship

1362
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:57,680
and and running down a circular hallway

1363
00:50:01,829 --> 00:49:59,760
and coming off the ship to finding out

1364
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:01,839
that he was in a ship on a hangar with

1365
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:04,720
other ships in this huge crowd

1366
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:05,680
you know

1367
00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:08,319
bigger than a flying walmart

1368
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:10,240
uh and then lost consciousness got

1369
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:12,559
returned five days later that is a

1370
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:14,559
fascinating story

1371
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:15,839
um

1372
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:18,720
he's not revealed publicly the exact

1373
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,800
gps coordinates of of where this

1374
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:22,800
occurred in the shallow forest i've

1375
00:50:26,309 --> 00:50:24,559
driven through there it's one creepy

1376
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:26,319
place

1377
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:30,160
dirt roads my little rb van

1378
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:32,400
but travis told me and i think this this

1379
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:34,480
now has been studied and maybe

1380
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:35,760
eventually this will be a site that's

1381
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:37,839
easy for people to visit but it's

1382
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:39,680
overgrown and changed a lot

1383
00:50:43,510 --> 00:50:42,240
the tree rings in the spot where he says

1384
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:43,520
this happened

1385
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,400
and and jennifer covers this in the film

1386
00:50:50,549 --> 00:50:48,480
there's a growth pattern toward the

1387
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:50,559
center of this open space where he says

1388
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:53,280
this happened that nobody can explain

1389
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:55,839
why would trees grow more in a direction

1390
00:50:59,270 --> 00:50:57,680
toward where this beam of light seemed

1391
00:51:01,829 --> 00:50:59,280
to hit trap i don't know

1392
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:01,839
the betty and barney hill story right

1393
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,520
why would an interracial couple in the

1394
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:05,680
1960s want to draw attention to

1395
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:09,119
themselves by telling a ufo story

1396
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:11,040
i don't know i find it more likely to

1397
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:13,119
believe something happened to them i

1398
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:14,400
contacted

1399
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:15,920
betty marsden

1400
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:17,680
stan friedman hooked me up with her and

1401
00:51:21,670 --> 00:51:19,760
actually drove the route as best i could

1402
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:21,680
because the interstates built over the

1403
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:23,839
top of it

1404
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:25,920
along where they were

1405
00:51:29,270 --> 00:51:27,440
abducted

1406
00:51:30,549 --> 00:51:29,280
where they had this encounter

1407
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:30,559
there's a spot

1408
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:32,160
where they were returned it's now like a

1409
00:51:36,309 --> 00:51:34,400
cul-de-sac subdivision kind of thing

1410
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:36,319
that betty helped me just find that i

1411
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:38,079
was interviewing for a faculty position

1412
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:39,839
at new england college

1413
00:51:43,109 --> 00:51:40,640
so

1414
00:51:44,069 --> 00:51:43,119
i spent an extra day just to drive their

1415
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:44,079
route

1416
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:44,960
um

1417
00:51:48,549 --> 00:51:47,040
i find that highly credible

1418
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:48,559
and there are others

1419
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:50,079
but you know people who provide things

1420
00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:52,079
without evidence yeah

1421
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:53,920
uh i mentioned earlier i've just been

1422
00:51:57,510 --> 00:51:55,760
listening to louis los angeles two and a

1423
00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:57,520
half hour interview i want to go back

1424
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:59,280
and listen to it again

1425
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:01,359
but he's very critical of someone i'm

1426
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:03,680
very critical of as well and

1427
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:04,800
and a lot of people are and that's

1428
00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:07,920
stephen greer yeah we won't say his name

1429
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:09,680
but he talks about people who've created

1430
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:11,200
kind of a cult following and make

1431
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:14,000
extraordinary claims with no evidence to

1432
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:15,680
say that theirs is the only view which

1433
00:52:19,750 --> 00:52:17,599
is correct and everybody else is somehow

1434
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:19,760
corrupt to create shell companies that

1435
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:21,520
they closed down and careers created a

1436
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:22,559
bunch of them

1437
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:25,440
the the seas space energy access systems

1438
00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:27,920
the project arrow the project phoenix

1439
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:30,319
all these are organizations he created

1440
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:32,480
raised money to reverse engineer zero

1441
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:35,280
point energy or whatever took money shut

1442
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:36,960
them down i i've met some of the

1443
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:39,440
investors who were very angry about that

1444
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:41,760
sign at a tesla conference uh talking

1445
00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:43,599
about how this breakthrough was imminent

1446
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:47,040
you know 20 years ago yeah um and uh dr

1447
00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:48,640
greer if you're listening if your fans

1448
00:52:53,589 --> 00:52:50,720
are listening i'll ask you again

1449
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:53,599
who is admiral marin i gave dr greer an

1450
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:55,760
oath at the citizens hearing on

1451
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,640
disclosure in 2013. i was the guy the

1452
00:53:02,069 --> 00:53:00,480
members of congress said you give

1453
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:02,079
everybody the oath

1454
00:53:06,549 --> 00:53:04,000
uh and then i got to fill in as one of

1455
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:06,559
the members of that panel after darlene

1456
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,720
huley left because her sister had died

1457
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:10,319
so i got to

1458
00:53:15,109 --> 00:53:13,040
fulfill her role on friday afternoon

1459
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:15,119
which was an incredible honor so there

1460
00:53:19,589 --> 00:53:17,200
were seven of us on that panel i got one

1461
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:19,599
half of one day but hey i'm claiming it

1462
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:21,839
and dr greer i gave you and everyone

1463
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:24,000
else all 43 witnesses that oath to tell

1464
00:53:28,069 --> 00:53:26,000
the truth and nothing but the truth

1465
00:53:31,190 --> 00:53:28,079
and dr grew testified there is an

1466
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:31,200
admiral marin who we are meeting with

1467
00:53:38,710 --> 00:53:35,680
who has an md like me and a phd

1468
00:53:41,030 --> 00:53:38,720
and won the ampere prize in france and

1469
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:41,040
as an advisor to president sarkozy he

1470
00:53:44,470 --> 00:53:42,640
testified to this

1471
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:44,480
to those former members of congress and

1472
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:45,760
me

1473
00:53:49,990 --> 00:53:48,319
so right after the event i typed up a

1474
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:50,000
transcript

1475
00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:52,240
listened to the audio typed up every

1476
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:54,319
word i was going to publish it

1477
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:56,720
and jeremy corbell stopped me from

1478
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,000
publishing it

1479
00:54:01,990 --> 00:54:00,079
didn't want to do anything to

1480
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:02,000
interfere with his ability to monetize

1481
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:03,599
that video

1482
00:54:06,710 --> 00:54:04,960
okay fine

1483
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:06,720
i don't completely disagree with that

1484
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:08,400
but i did a lot of work that i got

1485
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:12,240
nothing for and it's okay uh but in the

1486
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:14,720
process of typing the transcript

1487
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:18,319
i created footnotes for every

1488
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:19,599
uh

1489
00:54:23,349 --> 00:54:21,200
general that was mentioned every

1490
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:23,359
military base i looked up the spellings

1491
00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:26,400
of south american closed military bases

1492
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:27,520
and and

1493
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:30,240
uh dr sun should be from china

1494
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:31,920
look up the correct spelling of all of

1495
00:54:35,990 --> 00:54:34,079
his testimony and i run into dr grier's

1496
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:36,000
and i've got the list of ampere prize

1497
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:37,520
winners in france and there's nobody

1498
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:39,040
named marin

1499
00:54:43,190 --> 00:54:41,119
got a list of admirals from france

1500
00:54:44,870 --> 00:54:43,200
there's no admiral name named marin

1501
00:54:46,230 --> 00:54:44,880
there's no advisor to i said i write the

1502
00:54:48,309 --> 00:54:46,240
good doctor

1503
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:48,319
and i i don't have a bias against dr

1504
00:54:52,950 --> 00:54:49,520
guerrero i spent a week with him in

1505
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:52,960
creston um

1506
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:56,240
back in 2005 i think um and i said hey

1507
00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:58,160
i'm just trying to correct this you know

1508
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,880
did i spell marin wrong or or did you

1509
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:02,640
make a misstatement i'm thinking maybe i

1510
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:05,280
get names confused sometimes too

1511
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:07,200
and he said let me check my records i'll

1512
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:09,200
get back to you that's the last email

1513
00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:11,200
i've gotten from the good dr greer i

1514
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:13,040
have asked repeatedly i've had other

1515
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:14,079
people

1516
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:15,520
ask him

1517
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:17,680
in my view his failure to correct if it

1518
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:19,520
was a misstatement is the equivalent of

1519
00:55:23,190 --> 00:55:20,799
a why

1520
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:23,200
and then i've presented on this at ssc

1521
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:24,000
and other

1522
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:25,920
conferences with a paper called the

1523
00:55:31,109 --> 00:55:28,559
search for the mysterious admiral moran

1524
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:31,119
wow i got attacked by some of his uh

1525
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:33,599
supporters i am a being of darkness out

1526
00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:35,680
to attack the truth telling

1527
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:37,520
about the enlightened aliens that if

1528
00:55:41,589 --> 00:55:38,880
they cross

1529
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:41,599
the the veil of the the speed of light

1530
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:43,200
they somehow have to be all enlightened

1531
00:55:46,069 --> 00:55:44,640
and kind i don't know

1532
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:46,079
but boy i was listening this podcast

1533
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,640
today and lou won't say the good

1534
00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:50,319
doctor's name but it's clear who he's

1535
00:55:53,910 --> 00:55:51,599
talking about

1536
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:53,920
that does real damage to getting people

1537
00:55:57,670 --> 00:55:55,440
to come forward

1538
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:57,680
from inside the government who might

1539
00:56:01,750 --> 00:55:59,280
have been involved in whatever reverse

1540
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:01,760
engineering or research has been done

1541
00:56:04,950 --> 00:56:04,079
when there's this clown car show going

1542
00:56:07,829 --> 00:56:04,960
on

1543
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:07,839
of people making up total

1544
00:56:11,589 --> 00:56:10,079
fabricated

1545
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:11,599
[\h__\h]

1546
00:56:15,910 --> 00:56:14,079
in order to sell books or or get people

1547
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:15,920
to pay money to come to their private

1548
00:56:20,309 --> 00:56:17,119
events

1549
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:20,319
and somehow get a special experience and

1550
00:56:24,230 --> 00:56:22,640
i'm sorry i i early on talked about how

1551
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:24,240
i thought we ought to pass legislation

1552
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:26,480
protecting whistleblowers call me a

1553
00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:28,559
whistleblower

1554
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:29,920
i mentioned the great sand dunes

1555
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:32,079
national park it was dr greel who went

1556
00:56:37,030 --> 00:56:34,559
up uh zapata falls and said the et's are

1557
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:37,040
just behind the trees over there but you

1558
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:38,799
group of participants in my event you're

1559
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,400
not enlightened enough they don't feel

1560
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:41,920
safe to come into the clearing and talk

1561
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:43,200
to you but they sent me down the

1562
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,990
wow

1563
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,670
is this moses

1564
00:56:55,990 --> 00:56:53,359
uh and i'm one of the other people there

1565
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:56,000
who like oh oh dr greer what was the

1566
00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:58,720
message like wow

1567
00:57:02,789 --> 00:57:00,480
maybe i'm too much of a skeptic for the

1568
00:57:03,910 --> 00:57:02,799
ets to ever have open contact with me

1569
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:03,920
but

1570
00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:08,000
i'm sorry um i think travis walden and

1571
00:57:11,349 --> 00:57:09,760
betty and bernie hill have nothing in

1572
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:11,359
common with their

1573
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:12,799
their depictions of what actually

1574
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:13,839
happened

1575
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:16,240
and some made up crap

1576
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:19,200
uh and i don't i know i'll say this

1577
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:20,640
dr greer's defense i don't think he's

1578
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:21,520
the worst

1579
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:24,480
of that bunch and i also think prior to

1580
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:26,319
about 2001

1581
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:27,440
um

1582
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:29,280
i'm pretty much an unreserved fan of

1583
00:57:31,670 --> 00:57:30,880
what he was doing everything up through

1584
00:57:33,430 --> 00:57:31,680
that

1585
00:57:35,430 --> 00:57:33,440
national press club event back when he

1586
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:35,440
had sherry adamak working with him as

1587
00:57:38,950 --> 00:57:37,520
kind of maybe a governor on on his

1588
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:38,960
excesses

1589
00:57:43,589 --> 00:57:42,079
uh i think he did some good stuff and

1590
00:57:45,750 --> 00:57:43,599
it's always a mixed bag like louis

1591
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:45,760
elizondo said in this

1592
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:48,000
interview i was listening to uh recently

1593
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:50,079
said you know and and every blanket of

1594
00:57:54,549 --> 00:57:52,880
deceit there's a few fibers of truth

1595
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:54,559
i think there's more than a few fibers

1596
00:57:58,950 --> 00:57:56,559
of truth what gru did to get people on

1597
00:58:00,230 --> 00:57:58,960
video and sign affidavits and get

1598
00:58:03,750 --> 00:58:00,240
witnesses to come out from the

1599
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:05,430
yeah i don't have a lot of criticism of

1600
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:06,240
that

1601
00:58:10,230 --> 00:58:07,359
charging

1602
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:10,240
multi thousands of dollars for exclusive

1603
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:12,079
events out in the desert with some sort

1604
00:58:16,069 --> 00:58:14,160
of at least implied promise that you're

1605
00:58:17,349 --> 00:58:16,079
going to need an e.t

1606
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:17,359
wow

1607
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,880
one of the meditations we did in

1608
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:21,119
crestone

1609
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:23,040
the good doctor said oh we're now on the

1610
00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:25,520
bridge of a partially materialized craft

1611
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:28,640
look there's the captain's chair

1612
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:30,960
i thought they have chairs they have

1613
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:32,880
captains

1614
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:35,040
and it was just like a warm breeze and

1615
00:58:38,069 --> 00:58:36,240
if you've been out in the desert at

1616
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:38,079
night there's a mixture of cool and warm

1617
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:39,920
bruises but um

1618
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:42,240
either i'm not enlightened enough to to

1619
00:58:47,390 --> 00:58:46,000
have those incredible experiences or

1620
00:58:50,789 --> 00:58:47,400
there's some sort of

1621
00:58:52,549 --> 00:58:50,799
misrepresentation going on there um yeah

1622
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:52,559
so now i don't think every board has

1623
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:54,640
something in common i think that i think

1624
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:56,640
that you need to use your own judgment

1625
00:59:01,990 --> 00:58:59,200
the mind god gave you

1626
00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:02,000
and be discerning because

1627
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:06,559
whether it's religion or politics or

1628
00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:09,680
science uh i know an academe um you know

1629
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:11,200
there was a recent study that showed

1630
00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:13,280
something like at least a third of what

1631
00:59:17,270 --> 00:59:15,200
was published in the journal the

1632
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:17,280
american psychological association was

1633
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:19,440
based on fabricated data

1634
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:21,520
people just made up out of thin air in

1635
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:23,920
order to get a publication for tenure

1636
00:59:27,430 --> 00:59:25,200
they went back and looked at this stuff

1637
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:27,440
and in religion and in every field there

1638
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:29,520
are hoaxers there are people who can

1639
00:59:33,829 --> 00:59:32,000
make an easy buck but the jim and tammy

1640
00:59:36,789 --> 00:59:33,839
faye bakers of the world if you want

1641
00:59:38,309 --> 00:59:36,799
with their heritage usa theme parks that

1642
00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:38,319
jesus wanted you to have a roller

1643
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:41,359
coaster i don't know but that kind of

1644
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:43,119
person is attracted wherever they can

1645
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:45,200
make money and there are certainly it

1646
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:47,040
seems to me it would be unreasonable to

1647
00:59:50,230 --> 00:59:48,559
expect there are similar people in the

1648
00:59:52,950 --> 00:59:50,240
ufo field

1649
00:59:55,030 --> 00:59:52,960
and uh any you know and you get flack

1650
00:59:56,710 --> 00:59:55,040
for criticizing them i couldn't believe

1651
00:59:58,710 --> 00:59:56,720
the blowback i got

1652
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:58,720
for presenting an academically based

1653
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:01,280
paper at ssc saying help me find this

1654
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:02,720
admiral moran

1655
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:05,359
did the dr greer must speak or what

1656
01:00:08,470 --> 01:00:06,880
resulted in a couple of people coming up

1657
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:08,480
and telling me i was a being of darkness

1658
01:00:11,589 --> 01:00:10,400
because i was criticizing their

1659
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:11,599
their uh

1660
01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:13,920
the person they were a fan of

1661
01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:16,079
and then somebody else said hey there's

1662
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,119
a uh

1663
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:19,920
like a an amber marin in canada

1664
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:21,839
so maybe he just misspoke and i'm like

1665
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,680
well the guy in canada doesn't hasn't

1666
01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:25,520
won the empire prize and there's not a

1667
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:28,160
medical doctor so that's that's a pretty

1668
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,599
big misspoke

1669
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:31,760
yeah sorry you pushed the play button on

1670
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:32,720
one of my

1671
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:34,799
issues which is

1672
01:00:39,589 --> 01:00:36,880
don't lie about this

1673
01:00:42,069 --> 01:00:39,599
this is the most important issue

1674
01:00:44,789 --> 01:00:42,079
i i think for the future of humanity if

1675
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:44,799
not our past as well which is who are we

1676
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:46,480
why we are here what's our place in the

1677
01:00:50,789 --> 01:00:48,960
cosmos and if you're going to make up

1678
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:50,799
something that you say some advanced

1679
01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:54,160
being and some galactic council told you

1680
01:00:58,390 --> 01:00:56,000
boy when the truth comes out first of

1681
01:01:01,349 --> 01:00:58,400
all you i hope you suffer the

1682
01:01:03,109 --> 01:01:01,359
justice consequences of that

1683
01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:03,119
uh and there ought to be a special place

1684
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:05,200
in hell for people who mislead other

1685
01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:07,040
human beings just to

1686
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:09,359
i don't know get a sense of ego out of

1687
01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:10,880
it or get the dollars out of it or

1688
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:12,079
whatever

1689
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:14,559
yeah what's your experience about that

1690
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:16,319
ryan you have any comments on what i've

1691
01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:17,760
just said is this going to create

1692
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:20,079
controversy among your listener base i

1693
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,200
don't know

1694
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:23,280
frankly i don't care but i am interested

1695
01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:25,040
in what you think of it all

1696
01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:27,520
i think you're right there seems to be a

1697
01:01:31,190 --> 01:01:28,960
wealthy

1698
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:31,200
corporate cabal in just about every

1699
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:34,240
organization and unfortunately the ufo

1700
01:01:39,270 --> 01:01:36,319
field is not

1701
01:01:40,470 --> 01:01:39,280
insulated from that and um

1702
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:40,480
as as

1703
01:01:44,309 --> 01:01:41,520
much as

1704
01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:44,319
there's so many rave reviews for ce5

1705
01:01:48,710 --> 01:01:46,640
protocols and this and that the other

1706
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:48,720
thing but then again i mean it really is

1707
01:01:52,390 --> 01:01:51,440
just a form of ritual magic so to speak

1708
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:52,400
to

1709
01:02:00,870 --> 01:02:00,000
and i i've witnessed what

1710
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:00,880
i guess

1711
01:02:04,710 --> 01:02:03,119
really through other parties i've never

1712
01:02:07,829 --> 01:02:04,720
had any personal

1713
01:02:09,750 --> 01:02:07,839
interaction except just speaking to the

1714
01:02:12,870 --> 01:02:09,760
good doctor over the phone

1715
01:02:15,670 --> 01:02:12,880
but um personally the what i've heard

1716
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:15,680
from others are similar

1717
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:18,640
tales of um

1718
01:02:22,630 --> 01:02:20,480
i i don't know that just over

1719
01:02:25,190 --> 01:02:22,640
overcompensation

1720
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:25,200
for something that they thought they

1721
01:02:30,069 --> 01:02:27,839
were going to play a part in

1722
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:30,079
yeah and i want to distinguish the

1723
01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:32,480
protocols and the value of meditation

1724
01:02:37,430 --> 01:02:35,520
and seeking to be peaceful and open a

1725
01:02:39,430 --> 01:02:37,440
invitation for whatever life is out

1726
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:39,440
there to visit from

1727
01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:41,440
what i just described being lied to at

1728
01:02:47,349 --> 01:02:44,640
the hearings in washington dc

1729
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:49,670
every human being probably is a mixed

1730
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:53,039
bag i i know i am um

1731
01:02:57,109 --> 01:02:55,359
uh maybe i'm too judgmental maybe i go

1732
01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:57,119
too quickly to anger

1733
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:00,240
i'm sure i do both of those things um

1734
01:03:05,190 --> 01:03:02,480
but i seek to be that

1735
01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:05,200
advocate for radical voluntarism and

1736
01:03:09,910 --> 01:03:07,680
truth-telling and the value of the

1737
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:09,920
scientific method if you will

1738
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:11,280
um

1739
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:13,200
and the ce5 protocols are not

1740
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:15,200
trademarked or copyrighted or the

1741
01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:18,720
exclusive domain of of any one given

1742
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:24,789
and and they're kind of discoverable

1743
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:26,170
naturally as well

1744
01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:27,440
[Music]

1745
01:03:30,309 --> 01:03:28,720
i think you know i've spent a fair

1746
01:03:33,029 --> 01:03:30,319
amount of time camping out in the

1747
01:03:34,390 --> 01:03:33,039
deserts of utah oh yes and i'll tell you

1748
01:03:35,670 --> 01:03:34,400
what

1749
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:35,680
if you want to develop that kind of

1750
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:38,079
orientation

1751
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:40,880
toward contact or wonder about our place

1752
01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:43,760
on the planet get out west or somewhere

1753
01:03:49,430 --> 01:03:45,760
with low humidity get up at a high

1754
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:49,440
altitude get into a desert environment

1755
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:52,720
and spend three or four nights alone

1756
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:54,880
looking at the sky

1757
01:04:00,470 --> 01:03:58,000
and and the idea of what sometimes is

1758
01:04:02,710 --> 01:04:00,480
presented as ce5 protocols

1759
01:04:05,829 --> 01:04:02,720
just becomes a natural way of being

1760
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:05,839
after a couple of days in the desert

1761
01:04:10,950 --> 01:04:07,920
i think there's great value in that one

1762
01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:10,960
one of my good friends

1763
01:04:15,190 --> 01:04:13,440
as a now retired from having worked with

1764
01:04:16,309 --> 01:04:15,200
an organization called the anasazi

1765
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:16,319
program

1766
01:04:20,630 --> 01:04:18,559
down in arizona where they take troubled

1767
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,640
teenagers mostly

1768
01:04:24,470 --> 01:04:22,079
uh some older

1769
01:04:26,950 --> 01:04:24,480
uh out into the woods

1770
01:04:29,430 --> 01:04:26,960
of arizona for maybe a month and they

1771
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:29,440
live pretty much like the anasazi

1772
01:04:33,670 --> 01:04:31,520
indians lived just getting in touch with

1773
01:04:35,589 --> 01:04:33,680
nature excellent and they have a

1774
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:35,599
remarkable success rate from what i've

1775
01:04:39,589 --> 01:04:37,920
read been reported to me at least

1776
01:04:40,390 --> 01:04:39,599
in terms of these troubled kids coming

1777
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:40,400
back

1778
01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:42,640
into their families and having a

1779
01:04:48,390 --> 01:04:44,319
completely different orientation toward

1780
01:04:50,309 --> 01:04:48,400
a desire to cut themselves or consume

1781
01:04:52,309 --> 01:04:50,319
drugs that impact them negatively or

1782
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:52,319
alcohol

1783
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:54,000
and get a new passion for life and

1784
01:04:57,589 --> 01:04:55,520
making a positive difference in the

1785
01:04:59,029 --> 01:04:57,599
world simply from having lived out in

1786
01:05:00,230 --> 01:04:59,039
nature

1787
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:00,240
um

1788
01:05:06,230 --> 01:05:03,760
you know i think maybe if if we uh

1789
01:05:09,029 --> 01:05:06,240
if we could all do that um

1790
01:05:10,789 --> 01:05:09,039
it would diminish the desire among us to

1791
01:05:12,630 --> 01:05:10,799
go to war with each other to fight over

1792
01:05:13,990 --> 01:05:12,640
geographic territory or limited

1793
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:14,000
resources or

1794
01:05:18,470 --> 01:05:16,000
political differences or whatever we

1795
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:18,480
like to fight over if we just get out

1796
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:19,839
and and do what these kids do in the

1797
01:05:25,270 --> 01:05:22,720
anasazi program or just get out

1798
01:05:27,270 --> 01:05:25,280
and do the four or five days um in a

1799
01:05:29,349 --> 01:05:27,280
desert setting you don't have to spend

1800
01:05:30,710 --> 01:05:29,359
thousands of dollars to do that

1801
01:05:32,309 --> 01:05:30,720
right i think there might be value in

1802
01:05:33,910 --> 01:05:32,319
doing it alone too rather than with a

1803
01:05:35,349 --> 01:05:33,920
group of people and certainly i think

1804
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:35,359
there's great value in doing it without

1805
01:05:38,309 --> 01:05:36,720
a quote leader

1806
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:38,319
he's telling you

1807
01:05:41,829 --> 01:05:39,680
whatever

1808
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:41,839
um yeah

1809
01:05:46,069 --> 01:05:43,760
and then if we if we were to do that

1810
01:05:48,150 --> 01:05:46,079
maybe maybe the planet would be a place

1811
01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:48,160
that some enlightened life might like to

1812
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:49,200
drop by

1813
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:51,680
yeah i remember stan friedman god bless

1814
01:05:55,430 --> 01:05:53,839
him and i just it's tragic he didn't

1815
01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:55,440
live long enough to see disclosure

1816
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:56,880
happen or even

1817
01:06:03,029 --> 01:05:58,960
what's happened last couple years

1818
01:06:07,029 --> 01:06:04,950
brought you know a seriousness to the

1819
01:06:09,190 --> 01:06:07,039
field back in the 70s that it really

1820
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:09,200
wasn't ex didn't exist and he was doing

1821
01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:10,079
the

1822
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:14,240
presidential libraries and repositories

1823
01:06:18,549 --> 01:06:14,880
and

1824
01:06:21,430 --> 01:06:18,559
somebody say you need to meet jessie

1825
01:06:23,589 --> 01:06:21,440
marcel without that happening the whole

1826
01:06:25,510 --> 01:06:23,599
roswell story probably never would have

1827
01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:25,520
opened up you know a debt of gratitude

1828
01:06:29,589 --> 01:06:28,000
to stamp but stan used to say it at

1829
01:06:32,230 --> 01:06:29,599
conferences

1830
01:06:33,990 --> 01:06:32,240
you know imagine you're an advanced et

1831
01:06:35,510 --> 01:06:34,000
you looking at planet earth maybe you're

1832
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:35,520
a junior high school student whose

1833
01:06:40,230 --> 01:06:37,359
project was to go out in the boonies and

1834
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,240
write a report on the savages some

1835
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:42,480
planet on the outer edge of the

1836
01:06:46,230 --> 01:06:44,240
galaxy

1837
01:06:48,630 --> 01:06:46,240
how would your report read yeah

1838
01:06:50,390 --> 01:06:48,640
observation of life on earth human

1839
01:06:53,670 --> 01:06:50,400
beings dominant

1840
01:06:56,390 --> 01:06:53,680
creature uh primary uh activity killing

1841
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:56,400
each other primary economic activity

1842
01:06:59,589 --> 01:06:58,160
developing ever more lethal ways of

1843
01:07:01,510 --> 01:06:59,599
killing each other

1844
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:01,520
primary social activity watching

1845
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:02,720
horrible

1846
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:03,599
uh

1847
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:05,760
fiction and films and movies about the

1848
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:08,480
acts of killing each other

1849
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:12,079
who wants to drop by that planet yeah

1850
01:07:15,349 --> 01:07:12,799
uh

1851
01:07:18,710 --> 01:07:15,359
so we if we could maybe

1852
01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:18,720
reduce all of that a bit um

1853
01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:19,760
yeah

1854
01:07:24,789 --> 01:07:22,720
uh uh maybe maybe somebody want to show

1855
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:24,799
up for tea i know i'd like to get off

1856
01:07:29,510 --> 01:07:26,960
this planet and find find the version of

1857
01:07:32,870 --> 01:07:29,520
libertopia i hope is out there somewhere

1858
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:32,880
i see that kind of adjust um

1859
01:07:36,309 --> 01:07:34,799
yeah you mentioned my desire for

1860
01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:36,319
adventure travel i've been to china and

1861
01:07:39,670 --> 01:07:38,240
mongolia

1862
01:07:40,829 --> 01:07:39,680
asia i want to get to europe i haven't

1863
01:07:43,349 --> 01:07:40,839
done that

1864
01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:43,359
um i've seen most of america though i

1865
01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:46,000
have that rv with 360 000 miles on it

1866
01:07:48,789 --> 01:07:47,680
now i've been in every one of the 48

1867
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:48,799
states

1868
01:07:55,109 --> 01:07:52,240
this is a beautiful planet and

1869
01:07:57,430 --> 01:07:55,119
i was really struck by william shatner's

1870
01:08:00,309 --> 01:07:57,440
coming back down from his 10 minutes at

1871
01:08:01,670 --> 01:08:00,319
the top of a very primitive elevator

1872
01:08:03,270 --> 01:08:01,680
yeah

1873
01:08:05,190 --> 01:08:03,280
but he got to see the curvature of the

1874
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,200
earth and the fragileness of the

1875
01:08:08,870 --> 01:08:07,200
atmosphere that gives us life the

1876
01:08:10,950 --> 01:08:08,880
thinness of that out of all the

1877
01:08:13,190 --> 01:08:10,960
blackness of space and

1878
01:08:15,270 --> 01:08:13,200
all of the death that is at the core of

1879
01:08:17,349 --> 01:08:15,280
the planet from a few feet down all the

1880
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:17,359
way to the molten core there's this

1881
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:18,960
little bit of life on the skin of the

1882
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:19,839
earth

1883
01:08:24,789 --> 01:08:21,279
and boy when he came back and talked

1884
01:08:26,229 --> 01:08:24,799
about that i i like yeah bill

1885
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:26,239
i think everybody can see that you don't

1886
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:28,560
necessarily need to go up you know

1887
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:31,440
60 70 miles and look back down you can

1888
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:33,120
sort of realize that for yourself how

1889
01:08:36,789 --> 01:08:35,679
fragile and precious life is here

1890
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:36,799
um

1891
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:39,679
and uh and become somebody who wants to

1892
01:08:45,269 --> 01:08:42,719
defend that and and praise it and honor

1893
01:08:46,709 --> 01:08:45,279
it and feel grateful for it

1894
01:08:48,470 --> 01:08:46,719
and then you get to a place that these

1895
01:08:49,749 --> 01:08:48,480
so-called protocols

1896
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:49,759
you don't need somebody telling you how

1897
01:08:54,149 --> 01:08:51,839
to do that

1898
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:54,159
it can be easily encountered naturally i

1899
01:08:58,229 --> 01:08:55,920
think and i know you've done that too i

1900
01:09:00,070 --> 01:08:58,239
think you

1901
01:09:01,749 --> 01:09:00,080
one of you that told me a story about

1902
01:09:03,669 --> 01:09:01,759
being out in one of utah's national

1903
01:09:05,749 --> 01:09:03,679
forests and encountering an egg-shaped

1904
01:09:06,870 --> 01:09:05,759
vehicle is that your story

1905
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:06,880
i don't

1906
01:09:11,749 --> 01:09:09,920
think it was but uh maybe it's alien day

1907
01:09:13,910 --> 01:09:11,759
but then i get the two of you confused

1908
01:09:14,709 --> 01:09:13,920
sometimes yeah of course

1909
01:09:16,070 --> 01:09:14,719
and

1910
01:09:18,229 --> 01:09:16,080
that's normal

1911
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:18,239
but i have witnessed to your point i

1912
01:09:22,950 --> 01:09:20,000
have witnessed things that are not

1913
01:09:25,590 --> 01:09:22,960
typically seen so but i have to say i

1914
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:25,600
have to say that it is it is so

1915
01:09:28,950 --> 01:09:27,279
interesting how

1916
01:09:30,550 --> 01:09:28,960
you have been brought together with

1917
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:30,560
people either by

1918
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:33,120
this strange coincidence synchronicity

1919
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:34,560
or phenomena

1920
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:35,839
and

1921
01:09:41,110 --> 01:09:38,640
your adventure is i like that you akin

1922
01:09:43,910 --> 01:09:41,120
it to it's it's akin to

1923
01:09:46,789 --> 01:09:43,920
uh forrest gump because it really is

1924
01:09:49,030 --> 01:09:46,799
your saga on this adventure is is just

1925
01:09:51,110 --> 01:09:49,040
so interesting and i always love talking

1926
01:09:55,590 --> 01:09:51,120
to you about it and you're

1927
01:09:57,669 --> 01:09:55,600
you've got a great and upbeat uh

1928
01:10:00,630 --> 01:09:57,679
philosophy about it all and and you're

1929
01:10:02,070 --> 01:10:00,640
also very scholarly and real a realist

1930
01:10:04,709 --> 01:10:02,080
which is you know it's hard to come

1931
01:10:07,350 --> 01:10:04,719
across all those things in a responsible

1932
01:10:09,830 --> 01:10:07,360
way so i i appreciate the way that you

1933
01:10:11,750 --> 01:10:09,840
give credence to the unexplained can't

1934
01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:11,760
thank you enough for coming on the

1935
01:10:14,709 --> 01:10:13,760
podcast joe and i hope we talk again

1936
01:10:15,990 --> 01:10:14,719
soon

1937
01:10:18,630 --> 01:10:16,000
um

1938
01:10:21,590 --> 01:10:18,640
anything any last comments or remarks

1939
01:10:23,510 --> 01:10:21,600
before we wrap things up

1940
01:10:24,790 --> 01:10:23,520
no i uh well two things actually now

1941
01:10:26,630 --> 01:10:24,800
that you think about it so this will go

1942
01:10:29,510 --> 01:10:26,640
another 15 minutes but i'll try to keep

1943
01:10:31,750 --> 01:10:29,520
it short yeah now two things is

1944
01:10:32,950 --> 01:10:31,760
years ago after visiting that museum and

1945
01:10:34,390 --> 01:10:32,960
talking to my friend in the army

1946
01:10:36,310 --> 01:10:34,400
intelligence and realizing all this

1947
01:10:37,990 --> 01:10:36,320
stuff i thought about yeah i want to

1948
01:10:41,430 --> 01:10:38,000
talk to the et's

1949
01:10:43,270 --> 01:10:41,440
and i don't need a big radio telescope

1950
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:43,280
or broadcast transmitter to do that if

1951
01:10:47,189 --> 01:10:45,040
they're here they're downloading the

1952
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:47,199
internet so some years ago i put up a

1953
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:49,040
website i still own the domain i'm going

1954
01:10:52,390 --> 01:10:50,880
to put it back up again probably before

1955
01:10:56,229 --> 01:10:52,400
the end of the year and it's

1956
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:57,750
i love it and i just thought boy if i'm

1957
01:11:01,990 --> 01:10:59,760
going to start a conversation with some

1958
01:11:04,709 --> 01:11:02,000
wise being out there

1959
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:04,719
where would i start and i i'm ashamed of

1960
01:11:08,470 --> 01:11:06,960
the mess we've made of planet earth and

1961
01:11:10,229 --> 01:11:08,480
and i think bill shatner had that same

1962
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:10,239
kind of orientation we need

1963
01:11:14,390 --> 01:11:12,560
to clean up our own nest stop killing

1964
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:14,400
each other stop polluting

1965
01:11:17,990 --> 01:11:16,320
uh the planet to the point that it

1966
01:11:19,030 --> 01:11:18,000
doesn't support uh

1967
01:11:21,270 --> 01:11:19,040
life

1968
01:11:23,110 --> 01:11:21,280
so um look for that i think i need to

1969
01:11:24,950 --> 01:11:23,120
get that up i need to get my transcript

1970
01:11:27,510 --> 01:11:24,960
of the citizens hearing up i think it's

1971
01:11:29,270 --> 01:11:27,520
time jeremy and reuben have basically

1972
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:29,280
put it all up for free on youtube now

1973
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:31,440
although they edited steve bassett out

1974
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:32,800
oh my goodness

1975
01:11:37,110 --> 01:11:35,199
human beings are nuts and and the crazy

1976
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:37,120
hurtful things we do

1977
01:11:40,550 --> 01:11:39,120
um hey i'm gonna do that and the other

1978
01:11:42,470 --> 01:11:40,560
one i wanted to leave you with is i met

1979
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:42,480
ray bradbury once

1980
01:11:45,669 --> 01:11:44,400
he uh took a train to utah because he

1981
01:11:47,590 --> 01:11:45,679
didn't fly

1982
01:11:49,350 --> 01:11:47,600
uh and he gave a talk up at utah state

1983
01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:49,360
university and i also recorded that

1984
01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:51,760
typed up a transcript and sent it to him

1985
01:11:55,510 --> 01:11:53,120
it's one of those things i like doing

1986
01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:55,520
recording things typing up transcripts

1987
01:11:59,750 --> 01:11:57,920
sharing them ray wrote me back a

1988
01:12:01,830 --> 01:11:59,760
wonderful thank-you note

1989
01:12:03,910 --> 01:12:01,840
but what he said in that

1990
01:12:05,750 --> 01:12:03,920
still struck me which was he regretted

1991
01:12:08,470 --> 01:12:05,760
being alive now

1992
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:08,480
because we're too close to the cave

1993
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:10,800
and too far from the stars

1994
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:12,320
and he wanted to be a human being he

1995
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:13,760
could live when we

1996
01:12:17,669 --> 01:12:15,840
we travel among the stars

1997
01:12:20,070 --> 01:12:17,679
yeah and so do i

1998
01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:20,080
um and he just said i'm an enthusiast

1999
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:22,320
for life what you have before you is an

2000
01:12:26,950 --> 01:12:24,480
enthusiast for life

2001
01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:26,960
that's how he started out his talk so

2002
01:12:31,590 --> 01:12:28,880
i just leave everybody with the idea

2003
01:12:32,950 --> 01:12:31,600
that let's do things that honor life and

2004
01:12:34,790 --> 01:12:32,960
advance

2005
01:12:36,630 --> 01:12:34,800
life and end

2006
01:12:38,550 --> 01:12:36,640
suffering and

2007
01:12:40,550 --> 01:12:38,560
bring us to a place where the

2008
01:12:42,709 --> 01:12:40,560
earth might look like the garden of eden

2009
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:42,719
it was intended to be i believe such

2010
01:12:47,189 --> 01:12:44,880
that whatever life that's out there

2011
01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:47,199
that's peaceful

2012
01:12:52,070 --> 01:12:50,560
feels comfortable dropping by i know i

2013
01:12:54,870 --> 01:12:52,080
wouldn't feel real comfortable dropping

2014
01:12:57,030 --> 01:12:54,880
by if i had never been here before

2015
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:57,040
it's a little bit of a scary place right

2016
01:13:00,709 --> 01:12:58,880
now but let's let's move it forward

2017
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:00,719
surely we can all agree on doing that

2018
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:03,120
regardless of political orientation or

2019
01:13:08,149 --> 01:13:06,000
attitudes about various ufo researchers

2020
01:13:10,950 --> 01:13:08,159
let's just all agree we want to move the

2021
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:10,960
planet forward to being a place that

2022
01:13:15,830 --> 01:13:13,360
advanced people peaceful life would feel

2023
01:13:17,990 --> 01:13:15,840
more comfortable dropping by for a while

2024
01:13:21,110 --> 01:13:18,000
amen that's how i felt on your podcast

2025
01:13:22,390 --> 01:13:21,120
ryan thanks for having me here

2026
01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:22,400
well there you have it ladies and

2027
01:13:27,270 --> 01:13:25,280
gentlemen phenomenal individual with

2028
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:27,280
mind-blowing accuracy at approaching the

2029
01:13:30,630 --> 01:13:28,880
ufo subject

2030
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:30,640
joe bookman is

2031
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:32,400
a great guy

2032
01:13:36,310 --> 01:13:33,360
and

2033
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:36,320
has a very solid base of reason as a

2034
01:13:42,790 --> 01:13:39,520
philosophical radical volunteerist and

2035
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:42,800
he is uh well if there is something to

2036
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:45,120
the invisible college joe would have

2037
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:47,760
surely gained some knowledge of it in

2038
01:13:52,709 --> 01:13:50,159
his fascinating travels

2039
01:13:56,550 --> 01:13:52,719
it seems that there is a spark of sorts

2040
01:13:58,550 --> 01:13:56,560
intelligences lighting a fire of

2041
01:14:01,030 --> 01:13:58,560
which very little is known

2042
01:14:03,270 --> 01:14:01,040
it's called the invisible college of ufo

2043
01:14:06,310 --> 01:14:03,280
study and although none claim to be

2044
01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:06,320
members of such an organization

2045
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:09,040
many have basked in the warm light

2046
01:14:13,430 --> 01:14:10,480
of its glow

2047
01:14:15,750 --> 01:14:13,440
in the words of the 1999 movie starring

2048
01:14:18,470 --> 01:14:15,760
brad pitt which was likened to the

2049
01:14:21,030 --> 01:14:18,480
invisible college in diane pazulka's

2050
01:14:24,070 --> 01:14:21,040
book american cosmic

2051
01:14:26,830 --> 01:14:24,080
the first rule of fight club is

2052
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:26,840
you do not talk about fight

2053
01:14:33,030 --> 01:14:30,000
club joe's life seems much like forrest

2054
01:14:36,149 --> 01:14:33,040
gumps in that he synchronistically ends

2055
01:14:38,630 --> 01:14:36,159
up at the right place at the right time

2056
01:14:41,030 --> 01:14:38,640
whether this is fate or a byproduct of

2057
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:41,040
the very phenomena we speak of may never

2058
01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:42,480
be known

2059
01:14:46,390 --> 01:14:44,719
regardless his incredible journeys and

2060
01:14:48,870 --> 01:14:46,400
accounts should be taken into

2061
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:48,880
consideration

2062
01:14:54,229 --> 01:14:51,280
the fascinating result of this group

2063
01:14:57,669 --> 01:14:54,239
that for all intents and purposes

2064
01:14:59,669 --> 01:14:57,679
denies any actual existence

2065
01:15:01,669 --> 01:14:59,679
the invisible college gained a name from

2066
01:15:04,470 --> 01:15:01,679
j alan heineck

2067
01:15:07,510 --> 01:15:04,480
and whether real or not in any formal

2068
01:15:10,870 --> 01:15:07,520
group sense they are very much invisible

2069
01:15:13,590 --> 01:15:10,880
and yet a force upon the ufo field many

2070
01:15:17,110 --> 01:15:13,600
will purport are the players on the

2071
01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:17,120
frontiers of research

2072
01:15:21,669 --> 01:15:19,440
couldn't be happier with the guest today

2073
01:15:22,870 --> 01:15:21,679
magnificent guy

2074
01:15:24,790 --> 01:15:22,880
and

2075
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:24,800
until next time keep your eyes to the

2076
01:15:34,260 --> 01:15:26,640
skies feet on the ground but don't

2077
01:15:34,270 --> 01:15:51,430
[Music]

2078
01:15:54,310 --> 01:15:52,709
blast off

2079
01:15:57,189 --> 01:15:54,320
glassed off

2080
01:16:01,110 --> 01:15:57,199
come blast off in my time machine third